Bye, bye Honda
- Thread starter Bill Boddy
- Start date
Dartman
Banned
There is no reason why F1 can't go electric, though it will involve brining back refuelling i.e channge of battery, I wouldn't suggest going down the change car route, i.e two cars to complete a race swapping as required as governing altering the set up when charging or changing the battery. Changing the battery initially would involve some clever thinking to reduce pit time, but except for safety the design and installation should be free and not go down the standard battery route, that way we may get a system that would mean we can treat the battery pack as a fuel that can be standardised for road use.
F1Brits_90 the difference between the horses and the combustion engine is that riding the horses was not destroying the planet and fuel to power horses was not running out.
Dartman gen2 Formula E can run 45 min races and by the time we get to gen3 in a couple of years we're going to have fast charge pitstops.
F1's problem is that Formula E exists and stops them going electric. The two series will merge eventually (well formula E will become formula 1) but those at the current top of the F1 business pyramid are screwed because all those other teams/execs have got in on the ground floor. Hence Merc's speeded up entry. I mean if you'e Citroen DS or Mahindra last night you have to be laughing your ass off at how you managed to become a future player in Motorsport.
F1's problem is that Formula E exists and stops them going electric. The two series will merge eventually (well formula E will become formula 1) but those at the current top of the F1 business pyramid are screwed because all those other teams/execs have got in on the ground floor. Hence Merc's speeded up entry. I mean if you'e Citroen DS or Mahindra last night you have to be laughing your ass off at how you managed to become a future player in Motorsport.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
There is one major reason why F1 can't go electric - and that's Formula E's contract with the FIA. Formula E has an exclusive licence with the FIA for 25 years to run a single seater-all-electric championship. F1 would either need to pay Alejandro Agag a massive pile of cash (hundreds of millions or possibly billions) for the rights, or it needs to maintain an ICE in place until 2039...
Where I suspect F1 will end up before too long is a (petrol) engine powering a generator, for all-electric drive, with regeneration, with braking technology largely replaced by the same technology in Formula E.
I think they'll be a buy out/merge within the next 10 years. In some ways it was a brilliant move to set up Formula E by the FIA as it's allowing the tech to be developed so when F1 does go electric it won't drop in standard. Like I said the only people it's going to piss off is business execs as they now have to share a piece of the pie with other people who took a gamble early on.
F1Brits_90
World Champion
i dont know the horse exhaust gases were abit dodgy
. i just dont see F1 & FE merging. they are 2 very different sports if anything indycar has more in common with F1. the only thing that they share is that they are single seater
In many ways I agree, but the latter depends to a certain extent on the former: it's the cash the manufacturers bring in that make the cars "the best cars" and enable the teams to pay the salaries to secure the best drivers. F1 may remain the pinnacle of the sport based on tradition and history but if all the manufacturers and associated sponsors migrate to FE, it's far from guaranteed. Hence the need to carry on pretending that F1 has road-relevance (Honda, at least, have used it to train their engineers, so although there aren't specific innovations arising from F1 it may provide a general benefit?)
One other consequence of the budget cap: Mercedes, Red Bull and Ferrari will have a lot of excess money and talent that they can redeploy to other series - not just FE but Indycar and WEC could benefit from these, potentially further to F1's detriment.
True Galahad which is why Dear old Bernie wanted the manufacturers in. They could afford to pay out more while demanding less in comparative terms.
If you go back to the early 90s, the most technologically advanced cars were being produced by independent teams. They were getting the lions share of the money. Once Dear old Bernie got his mate Max to hand over the keys to the commercial rights, Bernie took out a far greater slice. If the teams were taking 80 percent of the commercial rights before 1997/98, afterwards they were probably only getting 50 percent all be it of a bigger pot thanks to Bernie.
If you have a pool of independent teams who rely on that cash to develop, Bernie has to keep growing the pot at a bigger, and potentially unsustainable rate. By bringing in the manufacturers, suddenly you have a group who are happy to take their purse from Bernie and still spend 3 times what they are given by FOM because they have other revenue generating opportunities.
I would argue that financed properly and with a far better and more open rule book that relies more on intuition and engineering and less on spending billions to gain 100th of a second, independent teams could produce outstanding designs as they always did in the past.
If you go back to the early 90s, the most technologically advanced cars were being produced by independent teams. They were getting the lions share of the money. Once Dear old Bernie got his mate Max to hand over the keys to the commercial rights, Bernie took out a far greater slice. If the teams were taking 80 percent of the commercial rights before 1997/98, afterwards they were probably only getting 50 percent all be it of a bigger pot thanks to Bernie.
If you have a pool of independent teams who rely on that cash to develop, Bernie has to keep growing the pot at a bigger, and potentially unsustainable rate. By bringing in the manufacturers, suddenly you have a group who are happy to take their purse from Bernie and still spend 3 times what they are given by FOM because they have other revenue generating opportunities.
I would argue that financed properly and with a far better and more open rule book that relies more on intuition and engineering and less on spending billions to gain 100th of a second, independent teams could produce outstanding designs as they always did in the past.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
I have to say that I don’t quite agree with you,..
I genuinely think that Mosley had the right idea in 2010... have a strict budget cap, but allow much more leeway with the regs. Then teams can’t just throw money at optimisation, but can instead, as you suggest use more intuition...
I don't have a problem with what Mosley was trying to do in 2010 but he lost his battle with his great mate Bernie precisely because he couldn't put the genie back in the bottle.
Like I said to G, Bernie needed the manufacturers to come into the sport precisely because they were willing to chuck cash at the wall to see what stuck.
Companies like Toyota must have wasted millions on their F1 project until the credit crunch blew them out. You can't tell me that they were getting more back from Bernie than they put in?
It was a brave move for Mercedes to enter F1 as a manufacturer in the immediate aftermath of the global banking crisis. Fortunately for them, Honda, BMW, Toyota and a short while later, Renault all pulled out as constrictors.
The Artist.....
Champion Elect
cider_and_toast - sorry, I absolutely agree with all of that! Bernie’s courting of the big manufacturers (to the point of squeezing out others had a massively deleterious effect on the sport). Jaguar was the real beginning of the scourge of escalating budgets (although Ferrari always allegedly had an unlimited budget in the 90s). The 2000s felt like F1 was going the way of the early 90s world sports car championships,... utter dependence on big manufacturers, followed by recession, withdrawal, and then irrelevance.
That being said, even during the early 90s there was a death-knell sounding for small teams...
Between 1989 and 1994, the sport lost (apologies for the teams like Coloni that morphed into other teams on the list):
Lotus, Onyx, Monteverdi, Larousse, March, Life, Coloni, Eurobrun, Andrea Moda, Brabham, Fondmetal,
That being said, even during the early 90s there was a death-knell sounding for small teams...
Between 1989 and 1994, the sport lost (apologies for the teams like Coloni that morphed into other teams on the list):
Lotus, Onyx, Monteverdi, Larousse, March, Life, Coloni, Eurobrun, Andrea Moda, Brabham, Fondmetal,
No apologies necessary The Artist..... I think we're both on the same page.
F1 has such a lack of love for its smaller teams. The powers that be just do not get that they are the foundation of the sport. For the last ten years they are under the belief that the F1 fanbase only cares about seeing Merc's and Ferrari's at the front. It's only now as the teams slip away or get taken over to they realise the sport doesn't work without multiple competitors.
The hurdles they put in the way for anyone to join is also ridiculous. Let's not forget the hoops Honda had to jump through to get on the grid and the disadvantage they were put at in their early years. Also let's not forgot Manor who were a team who twice fought through all the development obstacles to be on the verge of being a competitive team only to fold on a debt which was small change compared to what the sport brings in every year.
The sport does not have the sense or maturity to look after itself. It's like a 7 year old who gets to chose what they want for dinner everyday - after a long diet of chocolate, pop and sweeties it's starting to feel very unwell.
The hurdles they put in the way for anyone to join is also ridiculous. Let's not forget the hoops Honda had to jump through to get on the grid and the disadvantage they were put at in their early years. Also let's not forgot Manor who were a team who twice fought through all the development obstacles to be on the verge of being a competitive team only to fold on a debt which was small change compared to what the sport brings in every year.
The sport does not have the sense or maturity to look after itself. It's like a 7 year old who gets to chose what they want for dinner everyday - after a long diet of chocolate, pop and sweeties it's starting to feel very unwell.
Racing Point are a classic example of F1's problem outside of the big names.
Their history as a whole comprises of Jordan, Midland, Spyker, Force India, Racing Point Force India, Racing Point F1 and soon to be Aston Martin Racing.
In the 30 years as of next year since the gorgeous Jordan 191 appeared on the grid the team has had 7 different constructors identities.
I get all nostalgic when I see Torro Rosso / Alpha Tauri have some success. How brilliant would it have felt to see them take a win using their proper name, Minardi.
In some respects the smaller teams seem to utterly fail to recognise their name is their brand. Could you imagine if every time there was a change of ownership a football team changed its name?
Aston Villa, Midlands Villa, Birmingham Clarets, Football Point, The Villains FC....
There would be absolute uproar.
The American chairman of Hull FC tried to change the club name to The Hull Tigers and the fans protested so vocally that the FA finally stepped in and denied the name change. Mind you, the FA learnt a very big lesson after the fury surrounding their decision to allow Wimbledon to move to MK.
F1 absolutely needs teams outside of big manufacturing and those teams should be able to compete and develop.
In terms of ownership, F1 is possibly in a more dangerous position now than its ever been. Because of the number of "B" teams which have been allowed to creep in via the back door, a manufacturer completely pulling out now could take down two or three others.
Their history as a whole comprises of Jordan, Midland, Spyker, Force India, Racing Point Force India, Racing Point F1 and soon to be Aston Martin Racing.
In the 30 years as of next year since the gorgeous Jordan 191 appeared on the grid the team has had 7 different constructors identities.
I get all nostalgic when I see Torro Rosso / Alpha Tauri have some success. How brilliant would it have felt to see them take a win using their proper name, Minardi.
In some respects the smaller teams seem to utterly fail to recognise their name is their brand. Could you imagine if every time there was a change of ownership a football team changed its name?
Aston Villa, Midlands Villa, Birmingham Clarets, Football Point, The Villains FC....
There would be absolute uproar.
The American chairman of Hull FC tried to change the club name to The Hull Tigers and the fans protested so vocally that the FA finally stepped in and denied the name change. Mind you, the FA learnt a very big lesson after the fury surrounding their decision to allow Wimbledon to move to MK.
F1 absolutely needs teams outside of big manufacturing and those teams should be able to compete and develop.
In terms of ownership, F1 is possibly in a more dangerous position now than its ever been. Because of the number of "B" teams which have been allowed to creep in via the back door, a manufacturer completely pulling out now could take down two or three others.
F1Brits_90
World Champion
oh yeah i remember many years ago maybe 2013??. in malaysia in practise. some asked a question do teams make a profit. after Anthony Davidson had stopped laughing he said & hadnt for a while & teams lose huge amounts. spending way more than they bring in
you'll know me, im always banging the drum for underdog. every sport needs an underdog. ive mentioned Eric the eel, also the FA Cup biggest weekend is the 3rd round not the final & F1 is the only sport than shuns them, actively tries to kill them off. in 10yrs very few people will remember which races Hamilton won in 2020. but will remember gasly won in monza.
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oh yeah id forgotten about MK Dons. there still disliked 16yrs later
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Dartman
Banned
One has to look back to how F1 started, it was a manufacturers formula with private entrants as manufacturer B teams plus a few well heeled amateur entrants with their "hybrid" i.e mixture of chassis/engines and bodywork but it was basically amatuer for the spectacle, privateers with no hope but fun and start money. Except for the manufacturers you entered your car, paid the fee got scrutineered and off you raced, you didn't need a commitment to race the season, then came the Enzo Ferrari so called garageistas, who after a few false starts started winning, these guys were generally engineers or small production sports or racing car builders, Cooper, Lotus, Brabham etc, they made their money by selling their cars to privateers and selling support and expertise to their customers.
Today the manufacturer rules, the limitations of regulation discourage thinking out of the box, privateers are discouraged by swinging entrance fees to join the club, even billionaires have problems affording joining the club. F1 made enough money to support its 10 or 12 races but Bernie and the old Brabham F1 team decided to do a JR Ewing on F1 even to the extent of regulating the regulator, F1 is not a sport any longer is a billion dollar circus operated by big business collecting as much cash as possible on a worldwide basis from goverments, circuit owners, fans and manufacturers.
I suppose the real question is whether the the advantage to the manufacturers is real in advertising return or a myth that can they really get off without losing sales to the non participating manufacturers, are their products actually better than the non participating manufacturers, Ferrari are a different case, they're Italians and have a religious fervour to F1 and motor racing as a sport and have a right to win.
Today the manufacturer rules, the limitations of regulation discourage thinking out of the box, privateers are discouraged by swinging entrance fees to join the club, even billionaires have problems affording joining the club. F1 made enough money to support its 10 or 12 races but Bernie and the old Brabham F1 team decided to do a JR Ewing on F1 even to the extent of regulating the regulator, F1 is not a sport any longer is a billion dollar circus operated by big business collecting as much cash as possible on a worldwide basis from goverments, circuit owners, fans and manufacturers.
I suppose the real question is whether the the advantage to the manufacturers is real in advertising return or a myth that can they really get off without losing sales to the non participating manufacturers, are their products actually better than the non participating manufacturers, Ferrari are a different case, they're Italians and have a religious fervour to F1 and motor racing as a sport and have a right to win.
I'm not convinced Ferrari are different. They are now a publicly traded company with accountability to shareholders. It is no longer Enzo's hobby.
That said F1 is part of the brand appeal of Ferrari and McLaren. Their dealers tell customers they are buying F1 technology and their customers love that. This is not something a Renault or Honda dealer could claim, nor would their customers care. For Mercedes there has definitely been a branding benefit - they were always perceived as the less sporty, elder buyer's luxury car. F1 has definitely enabled them to compete with BMW and Audi for the younger buyer, and has helped the rise of AMG car and AMG package sales.
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Clearly my post was on right track about Mercedes. They reaffirmed their F1 commitment and plan closer links to their AMG division.
www.autosport.com
Mercedes reaffirms F1 commitment in wake of Honda exit
Mercedes has reaffirmed its commitment to Formula 1 and plans to forge closer ties between its grand prix team and its AMG division from 2021
www.autosport.com
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