Backmarkers

[ExtremeNinja]

My new foray into Karting is giving me some first-hand experience of blue flag situations and how confusing hey can be.

In a couple of incidents last night I was leading the field with two backmarkers fighting side-by-side in front of me. The blue flag is being waved for both of them and the only way that I can get past them is if one yields to the other and falls in behind. Now I'm shaking my fist in my cockpit and waving to the marshals as 2nd place, and I had worked hard to extend a lead, is chasing me down. However, I can also see the situation from the backmarker's point of view. Who is going to yield? If they both back off, they are still side by side and which of them wants to concede the fight that they are in?

In other scenarios drivers were generally fairly good at getting out of the way, there were a few tossers that despite being two laps down thought it was clever to race me aggressively and physically which absolutely made my blood boil and they should obviously have been penalised.

In the first scenario that I describe, though, there is a massive conundrum.

 

[Il_leone]

My new foray into Karting is giving me some first-hand experience of blue flag situations and how confusing hey can be.

In a couple of incidents last night I was leading the field with two backmarkers fighting side-by-side in front of me. The blue flag is being waved for both of them and the only way that I can get past them is if one yields to the other and falls in behind. Now I'm shaking my fist in my cockpit and waving to the marshals as 2nd place, and I had worked hard to extend a lead, is chasing me down. However, I can also see the situation from the backmarker's point of view. Who is going to yield? If they both back off, they are still side by side and which of them wants to concede the fight that they are in?

In other scenarios drivers were generally fairly good at getting out of the way, there were a few ******s that despite being two laps down thought it was clever to race me aggressively and physically which absolutely made my blood boil and they should obviously have been penalised.

In the first scenario that I describe, though, there is a massive conundrum.

Interesting obviously when backmarkers fight their own battles they don;t like yielding but would not they lose less time if they simply yielded because they are going to have to let you go or face a penalty for blocking

 

[Fenderman]

Interesting obviously when backmarkers fight their own battles they don;t like yielding but would not they lose less time if they simply yielded because they are going to have to let you go or face a penalty for blocking

It's often surprised me that so few racing drivers seem to get that very simple idea. It's something that good bike racers learn early if they want to get anywhere. In a nutshell, the tactic is to let the faster rider pass as easily as possible without losing pace and either 1) use his slipstream to "pull" one along or 2) follow and learn from the faster riders lines. Get the timing right and one can use the situation of being lapped or overtaken by a faster bloke to gain the advantage on one's direct competition.

Ideally, I suppose, in F1 one would want to have the lapper take you just before entering the DRS detection zone so that you can open your DRS and either zap past the guy your'e trying to overtake or have it as a defense if you're under attack. I wonder if there's any footage of drivers doing this. I'll have to pay more attention to the backmarkers in future to see.

 

[Slyboogy]

It's often surprised me that so few racing drivers seem to get that very simple idea. It's something that good bike racers learn early if they want to get anywhere. In a nutshell, the tactic is to let the faster rider pass as easily as possible without losing pace and either 1) use his slipstream to "pull" one along or 2) follow and learn from the faster riders lines. Get the timing right and one can use the situation of being lapped or overtaken by a faster bloke to gain the advantage on one's direct competition.

Ideally, I suppose, in F1 one would want to have the lapper take you just before entering the DRS detection zone so that you can open your DRS and either zap past the guy your'e trying to overtake or have it as a defense if you're under attack. I wonder if there's any footage of drivers doing this. I'll have to pay more attention to the backmarkers in future to see.

That's how I used to race Fenders! Back in the day, well only a few years ago.

Not that I got lapped very often

The second point Afroman makes is quite intriguing

 

[Il_leone]

well we did get some real mobile chicanes who simply did not yield who you would want to floor like Arnoux, Grouilliard , De Cesaris and Inoue.

Previously you can probably blame the marshals for not doing their jobs properly but with the new indicator system where a driver has a blue flag indicator on his dashboard... it has helped that many races have been ruined by slower drivers blocking previously and there is no reason now for backmarkers not to move over

 

[Mezzer]

The 107% time is an interesting point though.
Who originally decided to set it to that all those years ago?

Wasn't it set many MANY moons ago? I seem to remember a comment from Murray Walker that Ken Tyrrell was so [allegedly] disliked by the powers that be in F1 that a standard rule of thumb was that whatever time the cars did they could race unless they were Tyrrells.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Interesting obviously when backmarkers fight their own battles they don;t like yielding but would not they lose less time if they simply yielded because they are going to have to let you go or face a penalty for blocking

If one yields to another, that driver will certainly lose a place. time may not be an issue as the guys ahead of them may have an unassailable lead.

It's the situation where two backmarkers are side by side. Once again, which one yields?

 

[Mephistopheles]

In most series the blue flag is for information only and is obeyed as a matter of courtesy this is not true in F1 though but maybe it should be...

 

[Il_leone]

If one yields to another, that driver will certainly lose a place. time may not be an issue as the guys ahead of them may have an unassailable lead.

It's the situation where two backmarkers are side by side. Once again, which one yields?

really it should be the one who was behind on the previous lap that yields

I am sure the system can spot which one is flagged first today

I remember Rubens Barrichello seething at Damon Hill in Barcelona 1999 when both were being lapped by Hakkinen as it were. Damon sneaked up on Rubens and passed him as he letting Hakkinen through

I can understand both situations but really Rubens should be prepared to defend from Damon in moments

I guess it can be a grey area when you'r doing the sporting thing and only to be sneaked upon

 

[Mephistopheles]

Using back markers to your advantage is an art and one that I enjoy watching Schumacher was a master at it...

 

[Il_leone]

Using back markers to your advantage is an art and one that I enjoy watching Schumacher was a master at it...

Senna was an even better master at it that is why he always got the better of Prost. He simply bullied backmarkers to move over

the same way Prost got the better of Lauda

 

[RasputinLives]

Senna was an even better master at it that is why he always got the better of Prost. He simply bullied backmarkers to move over

the same way Prost got the better of Lauda

I'd say the best passes I've ever seen using backmarkers were by Mansell on Senna in Hungary 89 and Mika on Schumie at Spa that time so even the masters can fall prey to it

 

[Il_leone]

I'd say the best passes I've ever seen using backmarkers were by Mansell on Senna in Hungary 89 and Mika on Schumie at Spa that time so even the masters can fall prey to it

I am sure there is a few where Senna got the better of Prost using backmarkers

What about DC on Schumacher in Brazil in the wet

 

[RasputinLives]

What about DC on Schumacher in Brazil in the wet

Thats a good one but I think DC was already past him by the time the backmarker came into play.

I still love this one

How amazingly powerful was that Ferrari to drive round the 2 of them? and he started 15th and won!

 

[Il_leone]

Thats a good one but I think DC was already past him by the time the backmarker came into play.

I still love this one

How amazingly powerful was that Ferrari to drive round the 2 of them? and he started 15th and won!

Yes I remember it very well when Murray Walker went nuts over the pass . Mansell was brilliant taking Senna and Johansson in one go and the way he boxed Senna (which probably might have got a call to the stewards today) was FAN_TAS_TIC

It was 12th when Mansell came through and won


As for DC's pass he was in the spray and then went for it

 

[Mephistopheles]

You lot should look up Hakkinen / Schumacher / Zonta, Spa 2000 now that was a great piece of driving....

 

[RasputinLives]

If you scrolled 4 posts up you'll see I listed that as my joint favourite backmarker pass with the Mansell one.

Maybe yous hould read the thread before dishing out advice

 

[Mephistopheles]

Well as Zonta was the back marker I thought it was relevant.. I'll go find the video,,

 

[RasputinLives]

I was teasing. As I said that and the Mansell pass are my favourites. I favoured the Mansell pass on a video just because I think its shown less than the Mika one.

 

[Mephistopheles]

1.07 into the video