Backmarkers

siffert_fan

Too old to watch the Asian races live.
Contributor
In LeMans and the ALMS, where the speed differentials between classes is enormous, accidents are relatively few compared to F1. Maybe the backmakers in the former know how to use their mirrors, and in the latter they don't?
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
... and the fast guys (generally) know how to safely overtake. Yes, there are notable exceptions and there are tasty videos that could be posted to show the disastrous consequences of when it goes horribly wrong. However, it's worth bearing in mind that a 24 hour Le Mans series race covers almost the equivalent distance of an entire F1 season. The virtues of patience and consideration I referred to in an earlier post are especially valuable in endurance racing and still very much alive as it's necessary for survival and going the distance.
 

ATL11

Podium Finisher
The age old back markers story, just ask Nelson about a bloke called Eliseo Salazar.

The Malaysian GP had 2 incidents were front runners had their races affected by Back markers. One driver accepted it and behaved like a gentleman, they other well he was less so and his toys were thrown out of one of these:
4241.jpg

Backmarkers are part of racing, Blue flags manage this, pass 2 and go straight to jail (in a Monolopy sense) other than that a backmarker can yielded when they want within the 2 blue flag rule, simple.

The 107% qualifying rule ensure we don't have any very slow cars on the track and are lapped multiple times.

That's it we don't need anything else.

These drivers are the very elite of drivers in the WHOLE WORLD. If they cannot calculate in their brain where is the best place to pass a backmarker! Then they need to practice or focus on it for the next time, not lash out and look foolish in the World's media.

Mr X I'm sorry your car is not as fast this year and I've not seen your digit yet. But you need to deal with this as part of the learning curve, more cars are around you now, some even in front, DEAL WITH IT.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
In LeMans and the ALMS, where the speed differentials between classes is enormous, accidents are relatively few compared to F1. Maybe the backmakers in the former know how to use their mirrors, and in the latter they don't?

I suppose one of the differences there is what's at stake. I know last years Le Mans was close but I would suggest that losing a second in an endurance race is less important than in a Formula race.
 

The Artist.....

Champion Elect
Remember the 2001 Monaco Grand Prix? David Coulthard, the pole sitter (1:17.430), was forced to start from the back. On lap 8 he came up behind Arrows' Enrique Bernoldi, who had qualified 20th (1:21.336). He passed the Brazilian in the pitstops on lap 42.

I think I see what you're getting at here - some circuits it is infeasibly hard to overtake - even if you have a massively superior car - so when a car comes to lap you, they could take a huge amount of time before getting passed - is this correct?

Personally, I do support blue flags, but I do think that there are too many of them! Maybe have 3 blue flag points on a lap (perhaps) Generally speaking, drivers do not deliberately hold up other drivers (And it's fairly obvious when they are deliberately holding someone else up!)....
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Yes, up to a point, but the lost seconds at Le Mans can add up to a shed load of lost time over the whole 24 hours.

I think, given the huge differences between endurance and GP racing we're possibly heading down a cul-de-sac here.

I think I see what you're getting at here - some circuits it is infeasibly hard to overtake - even if you have a massively superior car - so when a car comes to lap you, they could take a huge amount of time before getting passed - is this correct?

That's what I'm getting at. I like the idea of blue flag areas - if there were 3 or 4 points to get out of the way for each lapping, then at least everyone has a better idea what was going to happen.
 

Kewee

Race Winner
Brogan is absolutely right. There is plenty of time for a back marker to yield before he passes the third blue flag. Something else that no one seems to have mentioned on this thread is the safety factor. The key purpose of blue flags is to warn backmarkers of the approach of faster cars. Historically the most serious accidents in motorsport have occurred when the leaders, traveling at considerably higher speed, attempt to pass lapped traffic. I'm sure no one wants to see tragedies due to back markers not receiving warnings of the approach of faster cars. Imagine a wandering backmarker at Spa. It doesn't bare thinking about.
 

Kewee

Race Winner
In LeMans and the ALMS, where the speed differentials between classes is enormous, accidents are relatively few compared to F1. Maybe the backmakers in the former know how to use their mirrors, and in the latter they don't?

Yes but they're not open wheelers and when they do have an accident, and they do, it's enormous and often very serious. :o
 

Kewee

Race Winner
There was Webber/Kovalainen at Valencia as an example of what could go wrong!

As you'll know from my posting, I couldn't agree more. You'd only have to have a piece of car fly over the safety fence and kill someone and you can imagine the outcome. Keep the blue flags in everyones interest, including the fans. :)
 

Boyle

Race Winner
Contributor
I think it is also worth noting that Red Bull of course own Toro Rosso, so what is to stop them from telling little brother from holding up their competitors while the Red Bull cars either canter off into the distance or close up in a short space of time on a Mclaren or Ferrari? Some provide technical assistance for other teams (e.g. Mclaren for Marussia) but can't order them to move out of the way from up on high. So that is another plus for the blue flag.

I can't see a better way for both frontrunners and backmarkers than as it currently stands - change it for the benefit of one and the other will see it as unfair. Anyway, a little more respect towards the slower cars from the leaders should be in order.
 

Fenderman

Rooters Reporter
Sorry folk's but I thought the OP was about whether or not back markers should compromise their own race when getting out of the way. Let me state quite clearly that I am not against the blue flags which are part of the very necessary warning flag system. I think as I alluded to here http://cliptheapex.com/threads/backmarkers.4806/#post-119068 that of course safety is an over-riding consideration but accidents involving backmarkers occur flag or no flag. I suspect there have been more than a few for backmarkers as a consequence of trying to get out of the way.

With regard to Le Mans being vastly different to F1, well yes of course it is, but the issue of compromising ones own position to get out of the way of the faster classes is very real to those in the GT's who can lose point paying positions as a result of getting out of the way. Principles of racecraft and etiquette should still apply, whatever the category of motorsport.*

* Except Touring Cars, naturally! :D
 

tooncheese

Hans Heyer
Contributor
In LeMans and the ALMS, where the speed differentials between classes is enormous, accidents are relatively few compared to F1. Maybe the backmakers in the former know how to use their mirrors, and in the latter they don't?

In Le Mans as a rule the backmarker always stays on the racing line, and that is respected as the leaders are not in so much of a hurry. However two leading Audi's were smashed up against backmarkers last year.
 

ramilas1

Podium Finisher
Blue flags are fine, and normally they are a help to both the back-markers and the race leaders.

One whinging cucumber :rolleyes: sauerkraut :snigger: Vettel shouldn't lead to knee-jerk rule changes.

This sort of thing doesn't exactly happen every race, let alone every lap, so chill out and ignore the current verbal handbags!
 

jez101

Bookies drive nice cars because of people like me
Contributor
Hypothetically speaking... lets say you are running in fourth place and catching third at maybe 1s per lap. The gap is 5s and there are 8 laps left. The guy in front gets past the backmarker without losing any time but you lose 2s because you catch him at the wrong point on the circuit so at the end of the lap there are 7 laps left and the gap is now 7s.

Your chances of getting third go from 50% to 5%. >:(

The thing is that it is so easy to lose time behind a slower car - they are just as fast as you on the straights but somehow manage to lose 5s in 15 corners over the course of a lap. Maybe you are gaining at 1s a lap somehow, but it will take you 5 corners to make up the time you lost in just one corner behind an HRT.

I want the HRTs and Virgins and Caterhams to race but to be honest if someone in 17th loses time trying to catch a guy in 16th, I don't much care. I'm more of the view that the backmarkers should disappear and I think there is a skill to it as well. Letting a car past without losing time (and even using a slipstream to gain time and even position) is one of the things that separates the good, bad and ugly at the back of the field.
 
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