Brabham? They won the WCC.
Ask The Apex
- Thread starter Galahad
- Start date
That confused me then..
Jack the driver won it twice in 1959 and 1960 driving for Cooper who won the WCC both those years so he shouldn't be on my list
Jack the driver won it twice in 1959 and 1960 driving for Cooper who won the WCC both those years so he shouldn't be on my list
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Bushi
Race Winner
I'm wondering what the deal is with horsepower in f1. What i mean by that is in the V10 era the engines supposed to have 900HP, but it has been reported that some engines had around a 1000HP. With the V8's it is know that Merc has the most powerful engine and Renault the less powerful. And with the new engines coming in next year, it is speculated that Merc has a 100bhp advantage over the rest.
So the rules for next year are V6 turbo engines with 750bhp. So that 750bhp, is that a baseline?
So the rules for next year are V6 turbo engines with 750bhp. So that 750bhp, is that a baseline?
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
The technical reg's don't specify a maximum horsepower, at least not in simple terms. The figures we hear quoted must be numbers derived from some complex calculations by mathematics boffins or perhaps leaked data from dyno tests.
The reg's prescribe limits to engine capacity (1600cc) and rev's (15,000rpm at the crankshaft), fuel mass flow (100kg/h) and limits on the charging and output of the ERS etc. Not knowing the maths or methodology for coming up with the numbers I can only assume that there is a theoretical maximum horsepower but since it isn't stated anywhere in the reg's it's not at all clear what that might be.
Added to that mystery is the lack of a precise figure for the maximum torque a power unit is allowed to produce. Taking my motorcycle (1700cc cruiser) as an example, the red-line is 5000rpm, it only produces 83bhp but the torque is massive. Sports machines rev' to 12,000 or more rpm, have over twice as much horsepower on tap but produce a lot less torque. So, I can out-accelerate most sport bikes out there. The downside is that if I chose to go there which I don't, my top speed is about 130mph against their 180+mph.
What I'm trying to illustrate is that with these new turbo and ERS assisted power units a strict definition of maximum hp and torque might not be the useful measures that we might prefer to see or find easier to understand.
The reg's prescribe limits to engine capacity (1600cc) and rev's (15,000rpm at the crankshaft), fuel mass flow (100kg/h) and limits on the charging and output of the ERS etc. Not knowing the maths or methodology for coming up with the numbers I can only assume that there is a theoretical maximum horsepower but since it isn't stated anywhere in the reg's it's not at all clear what that might be.
Added to that mystery is the lack of a precise figure for the maximum torque a power unit is allowed to produce. Taking my motorcycle (1700cc cruiser) as an example, the red-line is 5000rpm, it only produces 83bhp but the torque is massive. Sports machines rev' to 12,000 or more rpm, have over twice as much horsepower on tap but produce a lot less torque. So, I can out-accelerate most sport bikes out there. The downside is that if I chose to go there which I don't, my top speed is about 130mph against their 180+mph.
What I'm trying to illustrate is that with these new turbo and ERS assisted power units a strict definition of maximum hp and torque might not be the useful measures that we might prefer to see or find easier to understand.
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I have read that the new power units will be producing at least 750bhp before the addition of the 160bhp from ERS and so the total output will be 910bhp but obviously this will not be used for the whole lap also the cars will be heavier and so the power to weight ratio will not be a matter of simply adding on the extra power to today's cars on top of this the new units will be producing a lot more torque and so as long as the tyres are able to cope (Good luck with that Pirelli.) next years cars will out accelerate today's ..
It will be a matter of how this power is delivered and drivability that will matter most and not the odd 20 or 30bhp here and there.
It will be a matter of how this power is delivered and drivability that will matter most and not the odd 20 or 30bhp here and there.
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Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Indeed. James Allen had a chat with Mercedes' Andy Cowell who commented about the drive-ability as a key issue that they are working on.
Mercedes-engine-boss-says-power-units-will-not-be-dominant-factor-in-2014
Mercedes-engine-boss-says-power-units-will-not-be-dominant-factor-in-2014
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
I don't think anyone who is in a position to know the facts is making power claims with any specificity. None of the engine suppliers has anything even remotely resembling a final product ready, so I have to imagine that any numbers now being bandied about must be theoretical projections at best and blue sky fantasy at worst.
Because they all still are up to their eyeballs in researching, innovating and refining, any information leaks would amount to giving away their hard-won research for nothing, so they are keen that everything they do remain as secret as possible. Until they are forced to break cover, it is to be expected that they all will be playing it very close to the vest and no numerical values they release are to be trusted. I personally won't consider any power numbers credible until track testing yields some real-world acceleration figures.
An online article today at Auto Motor und Sport mentions there still are doubts that anyone will have an engine ready before the 2014 season begins that can produce 750 PS, eke 305 km out of 135 litres of fuel, and with each unit lasting 4000 km.
I vote for mandating each team uses the 1985 / 1986 spec electronic in car fuel displays ... the ones that show you have 20 litres left as you coast to a halt 11 laps from the end ... yep ... them ones ...
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
The 2014 reg's were agreed and published in July 2011. Most of the technology, if not all of it, is known technology that has been in development in one form or another further back than that. The fuel injected V configuration engine has been in existence for decades so the new stuff is merely evolutionary not revolutionary. So, the new V6's have been on the drawing board for at least two years in which time the work going on is mostly in the incorporation of ERS and Turbo's into what is predominantly a tried and tested engine configuration. We have heard albeit not very pleasant sounds of engines on the test bed so we know units are running. If the photo's of the Mercedes and Renault units are anything to go by they are far from being lashed up experiments.
So personally I see no reason why the grid in 2014 isn't filled with reasonably powered cars. Concerns over meeting the fuel flow limitations etc, will probably mean that the power units won't be pushed to their maximum capability but that is nothing new in F1. The current engines are capable of 20,000rpm but have had the rev's capped for years. The questions that remain to be answered on track will - as other posters have already noted - be with regard to reliability and disparities in performance. I would expect the major teams to play safe, operating their cars within "safety windows" but some of the midfielders might take a punt or two for some results. The chaps at the back will be between a rock and a hard place because they will ill afford DNF's from engine failures - so Marussia and Caterham will be at the mercy of their power unit suppliers to run "detuned" units under the guidance of the manufacturers.
It's very nice to be pessimistic and think that no-one will make the grid for the season opener but that is just not going to happen. These days the pace at which designs can be translated into solid working objects is such that what once took a decade of R&D now gets done in ten months. Oh, and lest we forget the chassis, people like Adrian Newey's team can have new wings and body parts designed and built in weeks not months.
So, my cup is half full and I'm looking forward to one year of interesting tech' stuff in F1 before the rot sets back in for 2015.
So personally I see no reason why the grid in 2014 isn't filled with reasonably powered cars. Concerns over meeting the fuel flow limitations etc, will probably mean that the power units won't be pushed to their maximum capability but that is nothing new in F1. The current engines are capable of 20,000rpm but have had the rev's capped for years. The questions that remain to be answered on track will - as other posters have already noted - be with regard to reliability and disparities in performance. I would expect the major teams to play safe, operating their cars within "safety windows" but some of the midfielders might take a punt or two for some results. The chaps at the back will be between a rock and a hard place because they will ill afford DNF's from engine failures - so Marussia and Caterham will be at the mercy of their power unit suppliers to run "detuned" units under the guidance of the manufacturers.
It's very nice to be pessimistic and think that no-one will make the grid for the season opener but that is just not going to happen. These days the pace at which designs can be translated into solid working objects is such that what once took a decade of R&D now gets done in ten months. Oh, and lest we forget the chassis, people like Adrian Newey's team can have new wings and body parts designed and built in weeks not months.
So, my cup is half full and I'm looking forward to one year of interesting tech' stuff in F1 before the rot sets back in for 2015.
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Jos the Boss
Champion Elect
What's the oldest record in the book? The longest lasting/the one which is yet to be broken since it was first set
Jos the Boss - Got to be Baghetti's record of winning his first race, hasn't it? Set in 1961.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Nice question!
Excluding the winner of the first ever F1 GP longest standing F1 records yet to be broken include:
Record for a Track: Indianapolis holds the record for the most retirements in an F1 event - 25 out 33 in 1951 Indy GP (part of the F1 world championship at the time).
Record for a Driver : Alberto Ascari holds the record for the highest percentage of race wins in one season @75% (6 out of 8 races) and 75% of fastest laps - the year, 1952. Also in 1952 he tops the record books for most consecutive laps in the lead (304 laps at the 1952 Belgian GP and Dutch GP). He also holds the record for the most consecutive wins (9)1952-1953.
Still looking about for team, constructor records etc ...
I believe that the three teams involved do have very good working models of the new power units and are now concentrating on making them lighter whilst maintaining performance and reliability, if they are not at this stage yet then they are surely not running to schedule....
I would imagine Fenderman but this is only a guess that the number of championships won by number of races entered belongs Juan Fangio 5 WDC's and only 52 races entered and will never be beaten in fact he only entered 8 championships and won 62.5% of them..
The greatest driver ever maybe...
Considering he only took up driving because nobody else in the team he was a mechanic for wanted to do it....
Although at present Vettel has a hit rate of 66.6%, will he be able to keep that up though? And even if he doesn't it is fucking impressive....
The greatest driver ever maybe...
Considering he only took up driving because nobody else in the team he was a mechanic for wanted to do it....Although at present Vettel has a hit rate of 66.6%, will he be able to keep that up though? And even if he doesn't it is fucking impressive....
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Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Seem to remember using that stat' somewhere. Jos the Boss was asking about the longest/oldest record that stands unbroken to this day. That seems to belong to Ascari in the form of at least one of his 1952 records.
Luigi Fagioli still holds the record for oldest ever F1 race winner when he won the 1951 French GP,
Blog Zbod
Podium Finisher
It is apparent from their underestimates of the new engine's dimensions that neither Ferrari nor Mercedes had taken their development seriously until rather recently. If all three engine suppliers had approached the FIA in unison last season to advise them to increase spec weight to 700 kg, they probably could have got it. Possibly Ferrari's 110 kg fuel load, too. But Renault, who was keen to see turbos return to F1 because their production engines are more likely to feature forced induction, also was the only one to have done the groundwork early enough to know the truth of it.
I think it quite likely that the 2014 engines' power numbers won't be up to the FIA's billing when they first arrive on the grid, deliberately detuned in the interest of longevity and/or fuel economy, and they will use the remainder of the season to top off development. Then there's also the ERS factor.
2014 ERS is massively more powerful than 2013 CURSE, but it remains to be seen how well kitted it will be by Melbourne. Especially because of its markedly greater cooling needs. And that rises in importance because there will be circuits where the cars simply will not be able to reach the finish at full chat without the supplemental thrust of the ERS. So if ERS fails or underperforms, they will have no choice but take the kettle off boil.
Jos the Boss
Champion Elect
Cheers for that, it just came to me when watching a Schumi video for the BBC where they said he'd broken every record in the book!
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