Grand Prix 2022 Dutch Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

When F1 announced it was going back to Zandvoort I was quite excited. I had good memories of the races in the 1980's, Alan Jones breaking a skirt whilst running away from the field in 1980, Didier Pironi looking like he would become World Champion with a win in 1982, which sadly he never achieved, Niki Lauda's last win in 1985.

I will admit to having watched the race last year on my phone, so it is difficult to be completely objective, but I do recall being totally underwhelmed by the whole event. Max and Red Bull were unbeatable, something very likely to be repeated this weekend. The track has been hacked about and they have included some parts, it appears to me anyway, because they can, rather than because they actually improve the racing or the spectacle.

It's strange that I don't find the passion of the Dutch fans as endearing as the passion of Italian fans. I suppose the Italian love of motor sport is long held and focused on a famous car brand, regardless of the drivers. The Dutch obsession is more recent, and focused on one, from my perspective anyway, less than likable individual, which can spill over in to jingoism and a poor attitude to anyone who might challenge their hero.

Sport is tribal, it is part of the reason why we enjoy it, to be part of a "gang". However, when it spills over in to negativity it is never pretty.

Let's hope this weekend we have a race of some sort, although I don't hold out great hopes. At the very least I hope that the fans behave themselves and as Max romps from a lights to flag victory they can avoid being too partisan towards the other drivers.

Here's the schedule for the cover age on Sky:

Enjoy.

 

[The Artist.....]

Tsunoda - the VSC came out for 2 laps. Lots of drivers came in to pit. VSC stopped lap 50, so they started racing again. Lap 56, Bottas ground to a halt, so out came the proper safety car.

7 laps in total, split by 5 laps of racing.

I really don't get what people are upset about this race. This wasn't a conspiracy by race directors. Mercedes screwed the strategy again. You might have an argument about the Alpha Tauris having given Verstappen a "free stop". We were certainly denied a barn-storming finish, but, I don't think this can be laid at the stewards.

• When Verstappen stopped on lap 56, neither Hamilton, nor Russell stopped, hoping to hold on to track position. As soon as Verstappen stopped, and Hamilton didn't (even if Russell was in between them), there was no way Hamilton was going to hold Verstappen behind him.
• Had Russell not stopped the following lap, Russell would have had the same trajectory as Hamilton (out of the podium places)
• Hamilton could have requested a stop on lap 57 (instead of Russell), and would have sacrificed track position, but with the benefit of fresh tyres.

Having failed to stop on lap 56, Mercedes threw away any chance of the race win.

 

[Il_leone]

Tsunoda's antics were suspicious to say the least if its a seatbelt issue

Mercedes had the strategy but the longer Hamilton was stuck he was losing tyre temperature behind the SC.

Its obvious the Mercs need hot conditions to get the tyres working

 

[The Artist.....]

Tsunoda's antics were suspicious to say the least if its a seatbelt issue

Mercedes had the strategy but the longer Hamilton was stuck he was losing tyre temperature behind the SC.

Its obvious the Mercs need hot conditions to get the tyres working

Tsunoda's issues were clearly not a seatbelt issue - the timeline was really simple (but unfortunately, David Croft is not very on the ball).

• Tsunoda thought he had a loose wheel, so he pulled over at the side of the track, and loosened his belts to get out (and retire).
• His engineer told him that all of the nuts had been done up tightly, and to carry on. He drove slowly back to the pits (as he had loosened his belts, and he was still worried that his tyre wasn't attached properly. (He should have just committed to pulling over)
• The team changed the tyres, and re-did the safety belts, but something still wasn't right in the car (Diff issue?)

In terms of Hamilton's tyre temp - that's precisely why Russell made the call (not the team) to come in for new (soft) tyres. Agree about Mercedes needing hot weather to get tyres working - they have a car that is very light on tyres, which when races run without problems gives them a real advantage. However, when safety cars come calling, they're a bit stuffed.

If F1 ever moves to no tyre blankets, unless they go for a new mechanical set up solution, they are going to be in real trouble.

 

[Il_leone]

Tsunoda's issues were clearly not a seatbelt issue - the timeline was really simple (but unfortunately, David Croft is not very on the ball).

• Tsunoda thought he had a loose wheel, so he pulled over at the side of the track, and loosened his belts to get out (and retire).
• His engineer told him that all of the nuts had been done up tightly, and to carry on. He drove slowly back to the pits (as he had loosened his belts, and he was still worried that his tyre wasn't attached properly. (He should have just committed to pulling over)
• The team changed the tyres, and re-did the safety belts, but something still wasn't right in the car (Diff issue?)

In terms of Hamilton's tyre temp - that's precisely why Russell made the call (not the team) to come in for new (soft) tyres. Agree about Mercedes needing hot weather to get tyres working - they have a car that is very light on tyres, which when races run without problems gives them a real advantage. However, when safety cars come calling, they're a bit stuffed.

If F1 ever moves to no tyre blankets, unless they go for a new mechanical set up solution, they are going to be in real trouble.

They are going to give Tsunoda and Alpha Tauri a stern talking about driving without secure seatbelts and future repercussions if drivers do this again

Mercedes had a real shot this week hope the remaing races will have favourable conditions for them otherwise they wont win a race.

 

[Johnny Carwash]

Ferrari the banter years continue.

 

[FB]

I only have one conspiracy theory concern with this race, and that's the circumstances around Yuki Tsunoda stopping at the side of the track. He originally stopped as there was some concern about a wheel being loose, either from him or the team. The team established that the car was safe to drive and he bought it back to the pits. They fitted new wheels and tyres, fastened his seta belts, then sent him back out only to tell him to park the car a few corners later.

This was bound to bring out a safety car, whether virtual or actual, which would be to the benefit of only one team, Red Bull. The FIA need to look VERY closely at the circumstances behind the decision to 1. send the car back out, and 2. tell the driver to stop the car. In the very specific circumstances there were in the race this allowed the main driver of the Alpha Tauri team owner's main team, Red Bull, to have a pit stop which allowed them to recover from a situation which, prior to this, meant they were unlikely to win.

It is a situation which stinks to high heaven, in a very similar way to the safety car situation at Singapore in 2008.

 

[Il_leone]

I only have one conspiracy theory concern with this race, and that's the circumstances around Yuki Tsunoda stopping at the side of the track. He originally stopped as there was some concern about a wheel being loose, either from him or the team. The team established that the car was safe to drive and he bought it back to the pits. They fitted new wheels and tyres, fastened his seta belts, then sent him back out only to tell him to park the car a few corners later.

This was bound to bring out a safety car, whether virtual or actual, which would be to the benefit of only one team, Red Bull. The FIA need to look VERY closely at the circumstances behind the decision to 1. send the car back out, and 2. tell the driver to stop the car. In the very specific circumstances there were in the race this allowed the main driver of the Alpha Tauri team owner's main team, Red Bull, to have a pit stop which allowed them to recover from a situation which, prior to this, meant they were unlikely to win.

It is a situation which stinks to high heaven, in a very similar way to the safety car situation at Singapore in 2008.

Unfortunately unless someone in Alpha Tauri admitted that they would be threaten with the sack we will never know. Agree curious actions given why they did not just call him back in the pits

 

[Il_leone]

Funny how Karen is no longer worried about missing races. Watched the C4 highlights they scrutinised Hamilton's radio message,but it was a pitwall cock up. He is not the first driver to have a go at his pit crew

 

[F1Brits_90]

 

[F1Brits_90]

the 2nd half was quite entertaining & livened up what wasnt a great race. firstly im not into this conspiracy theory it was just confusing & incompetence. the team thought the changing the tyres solved the problem. they had no idea of a differential issue. but it was still 1 of weirdest passages of this season. because what on earth was that with tsunoda.
- thinks he has wobbly tire.
- stops,
- teams says its not wobbly
- so he restarts & slowly makes his way back to the pits.
- in a 45 second pit stop. they change the "wobbly" tyres, reattach his seatbelt, he'd unbuckled,
- then 4 corners stops almost in same place complaining about the diff

also it does bring up the scenario of why dont cars like pit from the lead. im sure i said the same when it was Leclerc at Silverstone. its like some big risk & 2nd/3rd having nothing to lose. but they forget every time track positions is pointless if it just makes you a sitting duck from those behind. but today has shown If Hamilton ever has a weakness it is, he isnt decisive or doesn't like to go against the team. because you cant complain about what happened post safety car. Russell was decisive said he needed new tyres team didn't want to sabotage his race. & Russell protected his podium. also i think he lost the race when he went so early if he backed them up onto the straight. without the DRS, he mayve had a chance (yes im a hypocrite from F2 comment but as its still legal he was within his rights )

Sainz let himself down today with rubbish he was talking today with both alpines was he blinded by orange today. can be the only explanation for trying to defend the indefensible. 1st overtaking under yellow flags when you can clearly see bottas stuck at the side of the track & then tried to put the blame on alonso for slam dunk unsafe release. when everyone knows the fast lane has right of way

but then some of the stewards decisions relating to safety. had left alot to be desired this weekend. as off top of my Head. no yellow flag in qualifying as Vettel recovering onto the circuit on the fastest corner on the circuit & then it took an entire lap to put the safety car out for bottas that was obvious to everyone

 

[cider_and_toast]

I'm not sure that stopping Tsunoda on track was a deliberate act of race sabotage but it certainly was amateur hour at a number of teams today and indeed across the season as a whole.

Race craft in F1 seems to be a dying art. Every team seems to want to over think every situation resulting in mistake piled on mistake when in reality gut instinct and balls are usually the best option.

Also, listening to Horner talking to the C4 presenters post race made me want to put my fist through the TV..

"we're taking it one race at a time" "we're not counting our chickens" blah blah blah

Oh fuck off you absolute ****.

You are over 100 points ahead of second in the drivers championship. There are 7 races left. Max could bugger off on annual leave for 5 of them, come back and still be leading the bloody championship. On this occasion I'd think you'd be forgiven for saying you are almost home and hosed.

I am really struggling to think of another season where the principle opposition to the lead team has done so much to hand them the title. You can't really fault what Red Bull have done but Ferrari and Mercedes have gifted the title to their rivals. Their performances have been embarrassing.

If past seasons are anything to go by, Max will wn every title between now and the next major rule change.

 

[F1Brits_90]

I am really struggling to think of another season where the principle opposition to the lead team has done so much to hand them the title. You can't really fault what Red Bull have done but Ferrari and Mercedes have gifted the title to their rivals. Their performances have been embarrassing.

agree, i think 5 live was talking about this pre beligium or post hungary ferrari shouldve been 80pts clear but they were 80pts behind. when you think Ferrari had the opportunity to win the 8 races from round 6 to round 13. & they won 2

 

[Il_leone]

I'm not sure that stopping Tsunoda on track was a deliberate act of race sabotage but it certainly was amateur hour at a number of teams today and indeed across the season as a whole.

Race craft in F1 seems to be a dying art. Every team seems to want to over think every situation resulting in mistake piled on mistake when in reality gut instinct and balls are usually the best option.

Also, listening to Horner talking to the C4 presenters post race made me want to put my fist through the TV..

"we're taking it one race at a time" "we're not counting our chickens" blah blah blah

Oh **** off you absolute ****.

You are over 100 points ahead of second in the drivers championship. There are 7 races left. Max could bugger off on annual leave for 5 of them, come back and still be leading the bloody championship. On this occasion I'd think you'd be forgiven for saying you are almost home and hosed.

I am really struggling to think of another season where the principle opposition to the lead team has done so much to hand them the title. You can't really fault what Red Bull have done but Ferrari and Mercedes have gifted the title to their rivals. Their performances have been embarrassing.

If past seasons are anything to go by, Max will wn every title between now and the next major rule change.

Agree your points about Horner he simply needs to stop acting smug like he had it all planned. I dont think there is anyone more despising than him you want throw a remote to the tv.

Ferrari cocked up again with the pitstop shades of Nurburgring 99. Mercedes too conservative given they had a chance to box seeing Verstappen was on fresh tyres they should have done the same

Bottas car took so long to move give where it was ..why?

Off course the Hamilton haters will have a field day given his outburst and honesty about being at breaking point. Red Bull are taking advantage of charitable gifts if only Mercedes come back stronger sooner because I think Ferrari have had it and are in turmoil seriously from the pressure

 

[GeoffP]

With having a safety car every time anything more risky than a wilted oak leaf lands near the track I think the following design changes are needed:

1. Easy access to safe areas to remove risk to the inside of the circuit;
2. Deflective surfaces on the outside of the circuit to direct accidents to the inside;
3. Smoothe corners to be consistently graduated to prevent angle changes and therefore risk positioning main debris to the outside;
4. Reposition inner barriers to be further from the racing surface enabling safe recovery and safe breakdown zones;
5. Make all corners in one direction to reduce personnel working on the outside of the car in the pits;
6. Make safety car more aligned to the track performance of the competitors

Alternatively everyone who likes that can fuck off and watch Indy whilst the drivers learn to use steering wheels and brakes and the organisers review car dimensions and break away characteristics to allow wheel to wheel racing for a whole race rather than as a starting grid moment and demonstration of tactical/luck advantage from a stoppage.

 

[vintly]

So much enthusiasm for F1 on this forum

 

[F1Brits_90]

So much enthusiasm for F1 on this forum

yeah these conspiracy theories in the F1 world have gone a bit nuts. everyone overthink everyone & there always got to be an ulterior motive now.

as i always say usain bolt is the only liked dominant sportsman.

 

[FB]

Mark Hughes doesn't go with the conspiracy theory and believes Verstappen would have won anyway - Forget conspiracies, Verstappen's Dutch GP win was never in doubt — F1 race analysis

It's does strike me as odd that a journalist who has been covering F1 for as many years as Hughes doesn't see the "win at all costs" attitude of many F1 teams and especially Red Bull. Or maybe I just need to get a new tinfoil hat.

Me and the kids watching the Italian GP next week.

 

[F1Brits_90]

Mark Hughes doesn't go with the conspiracy theory and believes Verstappen would have won anyway - Forget conspiracies, Verstappen's Dutch GP win was never in doubt — F1 race analysis

well the way Russell went past Hamilton on softs i think he is probally right. we shouldnt be surprised when the best driver in the best car wins

 

[Dartman]

Realistically there was no chance of a Mercedes victory at any point once the safety cars intervened, that RB in Verstappen's hands was far too quick and would have overhauled the Mercedes, the mistake Mercedes made was not putting Hamilton on softs, they would have then had a 2nd and third, though which one would have been 2nd depended on who stopped first.

 

[GeoffP]

yeah these conspiracy theories in the F1 world have gone a bit nuts. everyone overthink everyone & there always got to be an ulterior motive now.

as i always say usain bolt is the only liked dominant sportsman.

I agree, I don’t believe there is a conspiracy, simply an inevitability that with such large vehicles on such small tracks that are designed to snap away from control once ground effect is broken we will lose the sport and simply wait for the ramifications from a driver coughing.

in addition the sooner they notice we are having more incidents due to the time pressure on changing wheels than we ever had from refuelling the safer the sport will get.

Smaller cars, more focus on mechanical grip and refuelling. Aero is a brilliant idea, I fell for the advantages too, but now we can see that it will help speed, but impede racing. Ground effect resolves this to a degree, but magnifies the crash risk…. As do pay drivers, but there’s another one