Grand Prix 2011 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

It's turning out to be a strange old season

Mixed conditions and poor pit stops paved the way to an enthralling race, while it had one of the lowest overtaking figures of the year, it certainly showed that overtaking isn't the be all and end all of grand prix racing, however the two Mclaren drivers showed that overtaking can be exciting.

Of the runners and riders, Ferrari have made the biggest gain and maybe, just maybe, Red Bull have lost their monopoly over the top step of the podium and we might finally have a championship, however I'm sure I have said this after China and Canada.......

The curious case of Mclaren continued apace this weekend as they had no pace, found pace and then lost it again. In the changeable conditions at the start of the race, Hamilton and Button charged through the field until the dry conditions when the natural order reasertied themselves, however, it is hard to see how they really showed in fully dry conditions as Button lost a wheel nut early on and Hamilton had to fuel save for the latter part of the race.

Going into the German Grand Prix, Red Bull will understandably be favourites as Sebastian Vettel looks to extend his lead at the top of the championship as he continues in his quest for back to back champions (and the youngest to do so before I'm mistaken) but he'll have to fight off a resurgant Mark Webber who is finally challenging his team mate again after a slow start to the season after he struggled to acclimatise to the Pirelli tyres, he was also stung by the team orders at the end of the last Grand Prix, so you can't bet against him for at least a podium position next weekend.

Renault seem to have disappeared after a strong start to the season, Vitaly Petrov seems to have fallen back into 2010 mode after a strong start to the season. Nick Heidfeld has fared better recently and still features in the lower ends of the points, however a podium seems a long way away, a theory solidified as their side exhausts have had to be abandonded due to the propsed rules, however with the debate going on at the moment, this may not be the case after all.

Mercedes seem to have found pace recently, Rosberg is constintely in the midle of the points while Schumacher seems more like himself again, in more ways than one.......... But at his home grand prix, he will be keen to show that he still has it, along with a large number of German drivers, the most represented country on the grid, so many people will be keen to show that they are the best German on the grid.

Team lotus made it into Q2 again which is a major achievment for them and shows that they are getting closer to the midfield and their major goal of getting points before the end of the year so they can beat Virgin and Hispania.

This year we return to the Nurburgring as part of the deal is that the circuit alternates with Hockenheim, last time we were there was in 2009 where Mark Webber won his first grand prix in the Red Bull. In recent memory Nurburgring will be best remembered for the crazy race in 2007 where a heavy rain shower caused havoc at the start of the race and famously allowed Markus Winkelhock to lead the race in his Spyker, joining the elite of people who led a race in their first (and only race)

For Galahad's excellent circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/nurburgring/

 

[Sarinaide]

It wouldn't be complete without the "powers to be" stealing the lime light.

 

[MCLS]

They weren't though CFS...

 

[tooncheese]

Why would McLaren appeal to the stewards, it just puts more points into Vettel's hands.

 

[Slyboogy]

As for Vettel, his racing craft is once again going to brought into question. The first time this season he has raced in the pack and he looked a little amateurish at times.

I have already pointed out, he and Webber don't exactly have a great car for overtaking due to various disadvantages, with KERS, DRS etc. the car isn't built for straight line mostly corners. They will always lose out unless they have much fresher tyres.

You would never see Lewis or Fernando being that much slower than their teammates without a fundamental problem with their cars.

Fernando Alonso in China no problem there, Button in Australia and China 2010....I think you should remember that Webber hasn't finished ahead of Vettel since Monza 2010, until now.

 

[FB]

Yee gods and little fishes. Why is it impossible for any of you to be objective about a drivers performance. Alonso pushed hard for the whole race, Webber got beaten, Hamilton drove a blinder, Vettel is not, by any form or meaning of the word "amateurish".

Sometimes I just can't understand why people have to be negative about one persons performance to enjoy the performance of the driver they prefer. Pathetic, juvenile and pointless are words that spring to mind.

Rant over

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Clearly they were fast,...but nowhere near the McLaren and Red Bull overall pace. How well Ferrari faired was always going to be decided on qualification, and no surprises to see where they ended up. Yes the second was a fantastic result that I would have happily taken without a litre of petrol being burnt up.

The Pace refered to was close enough to stick, never quick enough to ruffle feathers.

Really? Honestly? Sure? Come on. There's really no need to make excuses for Fernando. He drove a great race. If you ask him why he didn't win he'll tell you Hamilton was quicker, not the McLaren. Let's be real and accept the result for what it is and move on.

 

[Sarinaide]

Perhaps you watched a different race to me?

Alonso was one defensive move away from a win today.
If he had held Hamilton off after the last round of stops, when he came out in front to be leading the GP, Alonso would have been on the top step.

Other drivers beyond Alonso found coming out of the pits with new tyres did not really work on the first couple of corners,..Hamilton on better traction really and effectively passed him halfway betweent he first and second turns without minimal fuss.....

Perhaps he could have made a better defence yet if he moved over he would have been in the stewards notebook for making a move to the inside apex then moving over to the middle of the road, that said he was more concerned with actually getting the car under some power, it was like taking candy from a baby. The Webber/Hamilton attempt or defence was completely different.

And yes it was one defensive move from a win though he would have been hanging on, hardly did I see a purple with Alonso's name in it.

 

[MCLS]

Funny that, because I'm sure that "F Alonso fastest lap" cropped up on the screen quite often that race.

 

[Quintessentially]

We have already pointed this out, he got a much better drive than Hamilton, he had no where to go otherwise he would have bumped into Hamilton as it's a one car line through there....

I haven't seen either Red Bull driver overtake either, unless they are on fresher tyres. Their car is not built for overtaking, as Galahad has said their KERS system is not as great as it's I think 60% compared to everyone else's, and then there DRS is only 12kph. We saw Vettel have the DRS open against Massa most of the time, but he never really gained much distance. Until near the end when both of their tyres went off.

I don't think you cannot honestly look at today's race and say Vettel did the best possible job when attempting to overtake Massa (on track that is) and the car simply wasn't up to the task.

 

[Josh]

It's no secret than Red Bull's race pace isn't as great as their qualifying, unlike Ferrari and McLaren which are the opposite.

I know, but it seemed even worse than normal today. The Ferrari's and Lewis just drove away from them on the straight lines. I'm not too sure about the straight line speed, are the Mercedes powered cars the fastest, followed by Ferrari and Renault?

I don't think you cannot honestly look at today's race and say Vettel did the best possible job when attempting to overtake Massa (on track that is) and the car simply wasn't up to the task.

He had brake issues so obviously he couldn't do the best possible job.

 

[Slyboogy]

I don't think you cannot honestly look at today's race and say Vettel did the best possible job when attempting to overtake Massa (on track that is) and the car simply wasn't up to the task.

Think your also forgetting another factor, is that he doesn't need to take a risk with Massa who is no slouch at defending, otherwise if he took Massa round the outside it would have been a Heidfeld situation, no point going for half hearted moves as you are going to end in a collision.

 

[Sarinaide]

Think your also forgetting another factor, is that he doesn't need to take a risk with Massa who is no slouch at defending, otherwise if he took Massa round the outside it would have been a Heidfeld situation, no point going for half hearted moves as you are going to end in a collision.

He doesn't need incidents like last year at Turkey, smart driving and good on the RB tacticians to tell him to just let it slide.

 

[Slyboogy]

I know, but it seemed even worse than normal today. The Ferrari's and Lewis just drove away from them on the straight lines. I'm not too sure about the straight line speed, are the Mercedes powered cars the fastest, followed by Ferrari and Renault?

The McLaren was 10kph up on Red Bull, Mercedes are usually the fastest in a straight line, Force India are known for their straight line speed, Ferrari are always competitive overall, Red Bull's top speed is always one of the lowest. The Renault team usually crop up near the top, but it was mentioned they run very high gears and usually hit the limiter.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Think your also forgetting another factor, is that he doesn't need to take a risk with Massa who is no slouch at defending, otherwise if he took Massa round the outside it would have been a Heidfeld situation, no point going for half hearted moves as you are going to end in a collision.

...and this is the type of racing that you would commend? If Vettel was the racer he would have us believe he is, he would have got past Massa. Both Lewis and Fernando certainly would have and so would Seb's team mate.

 

[Josh]

The McLaren was 10kph up on Red Bull, Mercedes are usually the fastest in a straight line, Force India are known for their straight line speed, Ferrari are always competitive overall, Red Bull's top speed is always one of the lowest. The Renault team usually crop up near the top, but it was mentioned they run very high gears and usually hit the limiter.

I see, that explains a lot. Thanks

 

[Sarinaide]

...and this is the type of racing that you would commend? If Vettel was the racer he would have us believe he is, he would have got past Massa. Both Lewis and Fernando certainly would have and so would Seb's team mate.

Spa and Singapore are two classic examples of a driver throwing away his world championship making needles attempts at closing windows......then we fast forward to Montreal. Taking risks doesn't make you the greatest if at the end of the day you are still not putting another *cough* WDC in the *cough* locker.

 

[Slyboogy]

...and this is the type of racing that you would commend? If Vettel was the racer he would have us believe he is, he would have got past Massa. Both Lewis and Fernando certainly would have and so would Seb's team mate.

Remember Button deploying this tactic in 2009, as does every driver with a healthy lead in the championship. Just because he took less risks in this race doesn't make him less of a racer, Monaco this year showed he was a racer using your logic as he himself opted to stay out on those worn softs.

And no it's not a type of racing I would commend, but I can see the sense in it. The championship is more important than a risky move which can cause a DNF.

 

[FB]

...and this is the type of racing that you would commend?

When you are driving for the Championship, yes. Look back through the history books Extreme, all Champions play the percentages which is how they become Champions.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Spa and Singapore are two classic examples of a driver throwing away his world championship making needles attempts at closing windows......then we fast forward to Montreal. Taking risks doesn't make you the greatest if at the end of the day you are still not putting another *cough* WDC in the *cough* locker.

Ok. I will just accept that you are a little bit sour about the result today because it didn't go the way you would have liked it to. We'll leave the discussion there as it really isn't moving forward.

 

[Quintessentially]

Think your also forgetting another factor, is that he doesn't need to take a risk with Massa who is no slouch at defending, otherwise if he took Massa round the outside it would have been a Heidfeld situation, no point going for half hearted moves as you are going to end in a collision.

You are moving the goal posts blaming kers and now falling back on the easy argument of not taking risks. Vettel made a number of errors today which had nothing to do with brakes, kers or any other excuse you can unearth. He did not look to me like someone who didn't want to take risks and on another day would've been in the barriers after that heavy spin. I'm also sure he was subsequently given the all clear about his brakes. But it doesn't matter, we are not going to agree.