Grand Prix 2011 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

It's turning out to be a strange old season

Mixed conditions and poor pit stops paved the way to an enthralling race, while it had one of the lowest overtaking figures of the year, it certainly showed that overtaking isn't the be all and end all of grand prix racing, however the two Mclaren drivers showed that overtaking can be exciting.

Of the runners and riders, Ferrari have made the biggest gain and maybe, just maybe, Red Bull have lost their monopoly over the top step of the podium and we might finally have a championship, however I'm sure I have said this after China and Canada.......

The curious case of Mclaren continued apace this weekend as they had no pace, found pace and then lost it again. In the changeable conditions at the start of the race, Hamilton and Button charged through the field until the dry conditions when the natural order reasertied themselves, however, it is hard to see how they really showed in fully dry conditions as Button lost a wheel nut early on and Hamilton had to fuel save for the latter part of the race.

Going into the German Grand Prix, Red Bull will understandably be favourites as Sebastian Vettel looks to extend his lead at the top of the championship as he continues in his quest for back to back champions (and the youngest to do so before I'm mistaken) but he'll have to fight off a resurgant Mark Webber who is finally challenging his team mate again after a slow start to the season after he struggled to acclimatise to the Pirelli tyres, he was also stung by the team orders at the end of the last Grand Prix, so you can't bet against him for at least a podium position next weekend.

Renault seem to have disappeared after a strong start to the season, Vitaly Petrov seems to have fallen back into 2010 mode after a strong start to the season. Nick Heidfeld has fared better recently and still features in the lower ends of the points, however a podium seems a long way away, a theory solidified as their side exhausts have had to be abandonded due to the propsed rules, however with the debate going on at the moment, this may not be the case after all.

Mercedes seem to have found pace recently, Rosberg is constintely in the midle of the points while Schumacher seems more like himself again, in more ways than one.......... But at his home grand prix, he will be keen to show that he still has it, along with a large number of German drivers, the most represented country on the grid, so many people will be keen to show that they are the best German on the grid.

Team lotus made it into Q2 again which is a major achievment for them and shows that they are getting closer to the midfield and their major goal of getting points before the end of the year so they can beat Virgin and Hispania.

This year we return to the Nurburgring as part of the deal is that the circuit alternates with Hockenheim, last time we were there was in 2009 where Mark Webber won his first grand prix in the Red Bull. In recent memory Nurburgring will be best remembered for the crazy race in 2007 where a heavy rain shower caused havoc at the start of the race and famously allowed Markus Winkelhock to lead the race in his Spyker, joining the elite of people who led a race in their first (and only race)

For Galahad's excellent circuit write up, see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/nurburgring/
 
You seem to be arguing on two fronts blaming kers and now falling back on the easy argument of not taking risks. Vettel made a number of errors today which had nothing to do with brakes, kers or any other excuse you can unearth. He did not look to me like someone who didn't want to take risks and on another day would've been in the barriers after that heavy spin. I'm also sure he was subsequently given the all clear about his brakes.

I have two points which I put worth, as did you...

The first point wasn't an "argument" it was a fact, as they do have KERS which is 60% compared to everyone else's 100%, their DRS only gives them 12kph which is one of the lowest. Therefore, two overtaking tools which can hinder a driver overtaking someone else.

Yes he made mistakes, but what has that got to do with anything? You were mentioning his ability of overtaking, and I have already stated my points out.
 
I think you would find others above also find that remark rather flimsy at best, why would vettel throw away championship points and worsen the scenario trying to make a move on Massa, where the cost is greater than the eventual reward anyways....he was destined to finsh no higher than 4th anyway.......Me thinks your arguement is based on the ecstacy of Lewis Hamilton winning........great. If you read all the Free Practice posts when people thought that it would be a Ferrari 1-2, I remarked that practice is irrelevent and after Quali you get a picture of how the race devolves, so actually Alonso got a fantastic result in the context of the race.
 
Considering Seb's excursions today and his engineers' timely reminder to collect the points, I don't think "playing the percentages" was his game-plan. There is a chink in Seb's armour but it won't be there for long as he continues to grow. He is young and has a long F1 career ahead of him. :)
 
When you are driving for the Championship, yes. Look back through the history books Extreme, all Champions play the percentages which is how they become Champions.

I guess it comes down to wether you watch F1 to see drivers race or to just drive the cars to thier natural finishing spot. I tune in for the racing and so this dictates the views I have expressed.

As a spectator, if the driver I support picks up the championship then it is more of a bonus than anything else and generally more of a complement to the team than the driver. It's watching them battle for race victories that really floats my boat though and it's the driver's who have the same mentality that make F1 exciting for me. If you are not a racer then you are just a test driver. I like racing and I like racers.
 
I like how this becomes a Vettel tirade and how "poor he is" or "he can't do this or that" yet when Hamilton had mares there were conspiracy theories about McLaren punishing Lewis and all that Jazz.....talk about moving goal posts.
 
I like how this becomes a Vettel tirade and how "poor he is" or "he can't do this or that" yet when Hamilton had mares there were conspiracy theories about McLaren punishing Lewis and all that Jazz.....talk about moving goal posts.

I don't think anybody is knocking Vettel, really. I think people are knocking the fans that find the need to make excuses for him. Rather frustrating when he clearly doesn't feel the need to make excuses for himself.
 
Yes he made mistakes, but what has that got to do with anything? You were mentioning his ability of overtaking, and I have already stated my points out.

What do you think? I've argued all along that these mistakes (not kers, DRS or brakes) were more significant in his inability to overtake. I thought this was obvious.

By the way I thought Redbull's steep upper place design mean they have one of the best DRSs, albeit more in quali trim. Any performance gap between the top runners in DRS use is marginal and we saw Vettel pass Hamilton with DRS in China.
 
Spa and Singapore are two classic examples of a driver throwing away his world championship making needles attempts at closing windows......then we fast forward to Montreal. Taking risks doesn't make you the greatest if at the end of the day you are still not putting another *cough* WDC in the *cough* locker.

In those instances the driver was not 3 race wins clear in front, if Seb can't take risks overtaking when far in front he never will. So although a great driver he is not as great a racer as others who take risks and end up with the spoils overall (adjusted for car advantage)
 
I like how this becomes a Vettel tirade and how "poor he is" or "he can't do this or that" yet when Hamilton had mares there were conspiracy theories about McLaren punishing Lewis and all that Jazz.....talk about moving goal posts.

I do hope that's not the intention of poster's in this debate, but it cuts both ways. There's enough "tit for tat" goes on about all the drivers. LH is not short of detractors here or elsewhere so let's not pretend that he doesn't suffer the same kinds of criticism. Neither, should we bash each other up for having conflicting views, no matter how subtle we believe we are being.:)
 
And this is any different from the Lewis/Jensen fans at Valencia and Silverstone....as aforementioned Mclaren consipiracy theories. McLaren and their fans seem to ride waves or rollercoasters, the ups and the downs we never really know what they are content with.

As I summed up, Vettel had a shocker, the car was not tuned up with him today and he still finished 4th, remind me again where the train smash is in this situation.

As I also pointed out, Lewis from a commanding championship position threw it away with errors and accidents last year, if you say as a fan you want the driver to show just how big cohones he has and that making the cowboy moves is the testement of a great driver, bet they can't be to happy watching last year thrown away, nor could they be to pleased with the fiasco at Monaco and Montreal.
 
In those instances the driver was not 3 race wins clear in front, if Seb can't take risks overtaking when far in front he never will. So although a great driver he is not as great a racer as others who take risks and end up with the spoils overall (adjusted for car advantage)

Let me piece this logic together.

Best race result 4th;

Result achieved 4th;

Taking a risk to pass Massa:

Best case scenario; 4th

Worst case; DNF

Ughm maybe I am from another planet but really it makes no sense to throw away points on a sure march to the title.
 
And this is any different from the Lewis/Jensen fans at Valencia and Silverstone....as aforementioned Mclaren consipiracy theories. McLaren and their fans seem to ride waves or rollercoasters, the ups and the downs we never really know what they are content with.

As I summed up, Vettel had a shocker, the car was not tuned up with him today and he still finished 4th, remind me again where the train smash is in this situation.

As I also pointed out, Lewis from a commanding championship position threw it away with errors and accidents last year, if you say as a fan you want the driver to show just how big cohones he has and that making the cowboy moves is the testement of a great driver, bet they can't be to happy watching last year thrown away, nor could they be to pleased with the fiasco at Monaco and Montreal.

Are you talking about specific individuals or ALL supporters of the driver you hold in such contempt. Please don't generalise with such sweeping statements.

Also, when you talk about Montreal, are you referring to Alonso taking himself out of the race, Hamilton taking himself out of the race or Vettel losing the race on the last lap? Please be more objective.
 
Who is generalising........I don't hold him in contempt only the remarks that paint him with a brush of crimson and gold making him out to be the best and most faultless driver around. Then it comes down to bashing another driver for not attempting something stupid that has cost the aforementioned driver dearly.
 
Let me piece this logic together.

Best race result 4th;

Result achieved 4th;

Taking a risk to pass Massa:

Best case scenario; 4th

Worst case; DNF

Ughm maybe I am from another planet but really it makes no sense to throw away points on a sure march to the title.
But this is a man who wants to do the fastest lap when leading a GP by thirty seconds.:please:
 
A little question for Sarinaide: So why did he float ever so gracefully off the tarmac .. and not just once?

Made mistakes, the first was I guess attempting to race early on in the GP, the other was I think the Lock UP at the final chicane, either way he didn't lie down but his team ensured him that the points are better than nothing, live to fight another day.

Vettel is not faultless but today will be a big learning curve for him, and who would bet against him returning next week to the top step.
 
Buemi gets a 5 place grid drop at Hungary for causing a collision with Heidfeld.

Why wasn't he given a drive through during the race? There was ample time to investigate and award a penalty.
 
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