Grand Prix 2010 Turkish Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Race 7 of the season and it's back to a "real" track in the form of the Istanbul Park Circuit. It features the famous turn 8 which has four apexes and could prove to be a real test this season as the cars will be starting with full fuel loads.

Ferrari have traditionally done well here but Red Bull are the team to beat. They're also debuting their version of the F-duct this weekend so could have an even bigger advantage. Mark Webber will be looking to score his 3rd race victory in a row but Sebastian Vettel might have something to say about that, especially now he has a new chassis after the team identified an "issue" with the one he used at the previous 2 races.

McLaren will be hoping for a strong finish for both drivers after Button's engine failure in Monaco on lap 2 and prior to that Hamilton's wheel failure on the penultimate lap in Spain.

Ferrari's Felipe Massa will be hoping for his usual strong performance at Turkey. If Alonso gets the better of him here then expect a not-so-subtle shift in the team focus. This race could be crucial for Massa, especially considering it's nearing contract negotiating season.

Michael Schumacher will be trying to build on his performance from Monaco. Prior to his post-race 20 second time penalty he was actually ahead of Nico Rosberg on the track and will be looking to repeat that this weekend.

Renault will be looking to Robert Kubica again to bring home the points for the team. He could have a harder job this weekend though and will do well to finish in the top 6.

Force India scored their first ever double points finish 2 weeks ago. Can they repeat the feat?

As for the rest, they will just be thankful to finish. With all the new upgrades the established teams are bringing, HRT could be even further off the pace than they were in Spain.

 

[snowy]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Sebastian wondering away from his car whirling his finger round his temple with helmet on and then again with his helmet off, definately smacks of a driver with little or no respect for his teammate.

Had my teammate taken me out of the race with an idiotic manuvre like that then accused me of being insane I would piss in his tank just prior to every race for the rest of the season... unish:

 

[snowy]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Thinking about it... didn't Sebastian do exactly the same manuvre with Lewis in a certain pitlane not so long ago?...

 

[McZiderRed]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Perhaps Vettel thought that Webber would move to avoid him, like Lewis did in the pit incident, if he started to move in Webber's direction. Mark just kept station and the collision happened.

If that's what Vettel thought, then 'silly' Mark wasn't intimidated and didn't shy away from a collision like he was supposed to! Dashed unfortunate, that!

A risky thing trying to intimidate some-one like Mark Webber...

 

[FB]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I think Vettel is being a bit disrespectful toward Webber but then he is the star in the Red Bull team and Webber the "journey man". I think I'm right in saying that he was a junior Red Bull driver so is likely to have an inflated opinion of himself and his position within the team. Also, the "new Schumacher" tag is, very likely, going to have gone to his head.

As to the incident itself, I think both drivers are as much to blame but the team has to shoulder most responsibility. Vettel had the corner, Webber held his line, Vettel moved across to get onto the cleaner part of the track and the rest is history. Vettel perhaps shouldn't have moved across but being ahead of Webber at that point it's not unreasonable for him to expect Webber to cede the corner and get out of his way. As to Red Bull themselves someone should have told Webber that Vettel was able to run faster and then he could make a decision as to what to do on his fuel economy. If such an important issue is not communicated to both drivers the likely result is what we saw.

So, Christian Horner, stand up and take a bow. Knob!

 

[snowy]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

If you are a racing driver competing at the top level against the best drivers in the world you have to be aware of your competitions strengths, weaknesses and temperament. Mark Webber has never conceded a corner willingly in his life, to presume that he would start now is indescribably naïve. To be unaware of your own teammate's most ardent and arguably least endearing quality is unforgivable.

Christian Horner is also displaying a total lack of respect for his driver in not acknowledging (or perhaps even recognising) Mark's unflinching defensive disposition.

 

[Muddytalker]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

As to the incident itself, I think both drivers are as much to blame but the team has to shoulder most responsibility. Vettel had the corner, Webber held his line, Vettel moved across to get onto the cleaner part of the track and the rest is history. Vettel perhaps shouldn't have moved across but being ahead of Webber at that point it's not unreasonable for him to expect Webber to cede the corner and get out of his way. As to Red Bull themselves someone should have told Webber that Vettel was able to run faster and then he could make a decision as to what to do on his fuel economy. If such an important issue is not communicated to both drivers the likely result is what we saw.

So, Christian Horner, stand up and take a bow. Knob!

Why should Webber have moved over? He left just enough space for Vettel to come alongside and left it that - "There you go, you think you can get past and make the corner with a tight line, you go for it" Vettel was ahead but not clear of Webber, and did not have the right to the racing line. Under no circumstances should Webber have felt obliged to move over for him, he would have been laughed at if he had.
The point missed by Horner (and highlighted by I think Andrew Benson's blog) is that Vettel had more fuel as Webber and Hamilton had been bursting a hole in the air for him for 40 laps.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

At least we are seeing the effects of no re-fuelling now. I've said it before and I'll say it again, now if only they would get rid of the mandatory pit stop and we'd be laughing.

I think it's reasonable to say, this far into the season, that the banning of fuel stops has done more than anything else in the last few years to increase overtaking on the circuit.

 

[snowy]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

At least we are seeing the effects of no re-fuelling now. I've said it before and I'll say it again, now if only they would get rid of the mandatory pit stop and we'd be laughing.

I think it's reasonable to say, this far into the season, that the banning of fuel stops has done more than anything else in the last few years to increase overtaking on the circuit.

Amen.

 

[Enja]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Thinking about it... didn't Sebastian do exactly the same manuvre with Lewis in a certain pitlane not so long ago?...

He actually did it again to Lewis at Turkey, when Hamilton locked a brake and couldn't make the move stick.

 

[FB]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I still see both Webber & Vettel having to share blame for the accident. Vettel shouldn't have turned toward Webber but his rear tyre was up to Mark's cockpit. It's all very well to say that Webber won't be bullied but in that situation discretion should have been the better part of valour and he should have given more room. I don't like drivers playing the percentages and driving round for points but wouldn't Webber have been better off finishing 2nd behind Vettel or trying to get back past him later on in the race? He certainly seemed to have the legs on Vettel for most of the race so have a go later on, it worked for Hamilton.

Anyway, madness is defined as being in a minority of one so that suits me fine

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Well I personally attribute no blame to Webber - he didn't deviate from his line at all and didn't move his steering wheel.
If Vettel had done the same then they would have both braked for the corner and then fought it out - just as the McLaren drivers did.

As it is, it worked out better for Mark as he got 15 points and Vettel got none so although he'll be annoyed at not getting the win I suspect secretly he will be pleased at the ultimate outcome.
Otherwise it would be Vettel leading the championship on 103 points with Mark second on 96.

 

[FB]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I've just watched it again on the BBC website. Webber is not on the normal racing line on the approach to the corner, has set the car to squeeze Vettel and is pushing him very close to the grass. Probably not a very mature responses but Vettel reacts by try to push him back once he is most of the way past. To me both drivers have to shoulder some responsibility, perhaps not equal but 60:40 Vettel:Webber.

 

[Muddytalker]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I've just watched it again on the BBC website. Webber is not on the normal racing line on the approach to the corner, has set the car to squeeze Vettel and is pushing him very close to the grass. Probably not a very mature responses but Vettel reacts by try to push him back once he is most of the way past. To me both drivers have to shoulder some responsibility, perhaps not equal but 60:40 Vettel:Webber.

I still disagree - Vettel moved over, onto the path that Webber was travelling on, before being clear of Webber. That says "Move over, or you become part of my accident". And besides, given that they were so close, even if Webber wanted to move over he had litle time to do so. Bad driving from Vettel only, I'm afraid.

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The super slo-mo I posted in this thread demonstrates that very clearly: Sebastian Vettel - dangerous?

 

[Muddytalker]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

More unnecessary comment from Horner

Really, he just needs to shut up and show that he can manage a race team. This reads to me as another thinly-veiled attack on Webber, and shows that he isn't going to let it lie.

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

He remains confident that the crash has not done irrevocable damage to the intra-team relationship.

On the contrary, I suspect things will be even worse now Horner has released this to the media.

If anything slightly dodgy happens to Mark from now on with regards to fumbled pit stops etc. then there are going to be questions asked

 

[slickskid]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The more thats said about this the more it looks like a deliberate attempt by the team to get Vettel past Webber. Using the excuse of Hamilton passing Seb is pretty weak in my mind, surely if the pass was made on those grounds it would have just left Mark open to attack.

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

He really needs to shut up! If you allow an intra-team dispute to escalate then there can be dire consequences even if you are fast...



If Red Bull don't want to see Lewis Hamilton celebrating in Abu Dhabi, then the best way to do that would be to drive a wedge between Webber and Vettel!

There is a fraught road ahead. Anything could affect their equilibrium in the next few weeks. For example, as a possible scenario now uncontrollable by the team:

Australia beat Germany in the World Cup on 13th June, after Webber beats Vettel in the Canadian GP. We all know how obnoxious an Australian can get on the back of sporting success (both personal and national), and Vettel starts to feel victimised and starts going all Alonso on the team...

Finish the story as you will. Without careful management, the fuse will be there for the spark to ignite. The spark in 2007 was qualigate then spygate. Red Bull have to insure their fuses remain unlit, their gates remain unopened and their toilets are well away from their fans.

 

[cider_and_toast]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Finish the story as you will. Without careful management, the fuse will be there for the spark to ignite. The spark in 2007 was qualigate then spygate. Red Bull have to insure their fuses remain unlit, their gates remain unopened and their toilets are well away from their fans.

I agree with you there TBY but I would say that the fuse at Mclaren was lit with "They-wouldn't-let-me-attack- him-gate" at that seasons Monaco GP. Remember all the speculation in the press (especially the British Press) that Mclaren had told Lewis that he couldn't attack Alonso even though Lewis felt he was faster. There was plenty of righteous indignation from the press about team orders etc.

Which brings me to Little Jack Horners statement.

Shouldn't that have read:

"A Gee Cobber couldn't you ask me old mucka Seb just to cool it and let me 'ave this one"
"Sorry Mark, no can do. You know the rules on orders that are designed to effect the result"

Any how, I thought a few days ago that the reason for the difference in pace was not due to Webber miss-managing his tyres at that point in the race but Webber being told to go to fuel conserve mode before Vettel. So which is it? Was he in fuel conserve mode or were his tyres going off the boil?

Finally, the most bizarre thing is why bother to get so excited about one driver over another? As long as they bring home the bacon who gives a chuff which one does it? It's a bit like sending your number 2 striker out with his boot laces tied together because he had the audacity to score 2 more goals than your 25 Million pound summer signing from Madrid.

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Well Red Bull have spent an awful lot of money on Vettel as part of their driver program and there are certain members of the team who think it would be not in their best interests if Mark was to win the WDC or finish ahead of him.