Grand Prix 2010 Turkish Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Race 7 of the season and it's back to a "real" track in the form of the Istanbul Park Circuit. It features the famous turn 8 which has four apexes and could prove to be a real test this season as the cars will be starting with full fuel loads.

Ferrari have traditionally done well here but Red Bull are the team to beat. They're also debuting their version of the F-duct this weekend so could have an even bigger advantage. Mark Webber will be looking to score his 3rd race victory in a row but Sebastian Vettel might have something to say about that, especially now he has a new chassis after the team identified an "issue" with the one he used at the previous 2 races.

McLaren will be hoping for a strong finish for both drivers after Button's engine failure in Monaco on lap 2 and prior to that Hamilton's wheel failure on the penultimate lap in Spain.

Ferrari's Felipe Massa will be hoping for his usual strong performance at Turkey. If Alonso gets the better of him here then expect a not-so-subtle shift in the team focus. This race could be crucial for Massa, especially considering it's nearing contract negotiating season.

Michael Schumacher will be trying to build on his performance from Monaco. Prior to his post-race 20 second time penalty he was actually ahead of Nico Rosberg on the track and will be looking to repeat that this weekend.

Renault will be looking to Robert Kubica again to bring home the points for the team. He could have a harder job this weekend though and will do well to finish in the top 6.

Force India scored their first ever double points finish 2 weeks ago. Can they repeat the feat?

As for the rest, they will just be thankful to finish. With all the new upgrades the established teams are bringing, HRT could be even further off the pace than they were in Spain.

 

[McZiderRed]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Hold on, let me catch my breath.



Nope, still don't have it.




*gulp*

That was good eh?

That was an excellent race!

Bad luck for Mark Webber. From the replay, it does look like Vettel veered right. When he was alongside Mark, he looked erratic anyway and then topped that by hitting his team-mate! Ooops!

A quality bit of racing from the McLaren duo. Wheel to wheel and nice & clean.

A one-two for the British drivers. OK, it was an inherited one-two, but they still count!

And it certainly makes up for Britain's Eurovision showing, last night!

Fair play to Button for taking advantage of the situation and equally fair play to Hamilton for not loosing his temper and the plot and managing to pull off the re-take at turn one.

Racers will be racers! Brilliant move by Jenson to get by Lewis and brilliant move by Lewis to get back past. Well done chaps!

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I'm not so sure it was a brilliant move by Jenson, I think he took advantage of the fact that Lewis was in cruise mode, as instructed by the team. Lewis said in the press conference that Jenson's move was "definitely unexpected".
Let's face it, the radio message was about as obvious as you can get without actually saying "turn the engine down and hold position to the end of the race"

Whether the pass was due to Jenson ignoring the team orders radio message or him receiving a different radio message, we will probably never know.

Lewis' retake shows exactly why he is considered one of the best racers though, that was a hard fought pass on a team mate who was racing.

I wonder how this will play out for the rest of the season now? Is Lewis going to take this to mean that team orders no longer exist?

 

[McZiderRed]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

According to one of Jenson's post race interviews, he was given the instruction to save fuel not long after his pit-stop. (We heard the radio message to Lewis, much later in the race, to conserve fuel and that both McLaren drivers were doing so). Jenson said that Lewis was slowing down considerably, presumably 'finding his feet' in conserving fuel mode, whereas Jenson had been doing this for quite some time already. Therefore, Jenson, legitimately, took advantage of the slowing Lewis to make his move.

Seems fair enough to me...

 

[cider_and_toast]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Jensons move just reminded me of the old days when signs like "slow", "conserve fuel" or even "hold station" were routinely ignored by drivers on the track.

Yes it could lead to extremes such as Villeneuve / Pironi but at the same time it makes a change from the Schumacher at his peak years of contractual holding station. Clever thing to do or not doesn't really matter much to me because as McZ said, the guys were racing and it was a joy to watch.

Still not sure how Vettel managed to come a cropper though. It did seem like he was trying to push Webber across and that Webber never moved. Vettel is having a strange season so far and it's interesting to see where he goes from here. Somehow I think Webber will have even more motivation now and could still be on for the WDC this season while Vettel may struggle to get himself sorted out.

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Vettel did the same thing to Webber that he did to Hamilton earlier in the race.
The difference is Hamilton moved right to avoid it (which is why he went too deep and missed his braking point) whereas Webber held his line.

Vettel seems to have a habit of doing that - remember him forcing Hamilton into the pit boxes?

 

[P1]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I thought that race was fantastic too. I got to imagine other teams must be envious of the McLaren driver line up right now. Button and Hamilton are both in their element, and they race with the maturity of world champions. The contrast between the Red Bull crash and the McLaren dual just 7 laps later was incredibly striking.

I think McLaren have to be the favorites right now. Nobody does mid-season development as well as they do.

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The best part of the race for me was that there were 4 cars separated by a few seconds so there was always the possibility of something happening.

The fact that ultimately no-one was able to overtake is just a continuation of the problem that F1 has had for a long time.

If it wasn't for turn 8 though where the McLarens had to downshift, I think they would have been past the Red Bulls quite easily.

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Looked ominous for anyone not in a Red Bull or particularly McLaren; the silver arrows were well ahead of the silver arrows in 4th and 5th so looks good for them.

If McLaren maintain their straight line speed advantage, as has been said, they're looking good for the Canadian GP. Worth watching out for Force India in Canada as well, I suspect!

Renault and Ferrari don't seem too far apart pace-wise, which is astonishing considering where they started from. And nice to see Sauber's misery take a break with a double finish and deserved points from the quietly competent Kobayashi.

Also good to see Senna outqualifying di Grassi, ensuring a HRT on the not-back row without problems applying to other teams!

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Also good to see Senna outqualifying di Grassi, ensuring a HRT on the not-back row without problems applying to other teams!

Apparently di Grassi had engine problems which explains why he qualified behind Senna.

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

teabagyokel said: Also good to see Senna outqualifying di Grassi, ensuring a HRT on the not-back row without problems applying to other teams!


Apparently di Grassi had engine problems which explains why he qualified behind Senna.

Maybe, but Chandhok didn't qualify in front of di Grassi so it is clear that the Virgin was running with a reasonable amount of performance that Senna was not a cert to beat!

 

[snowy]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Lewis and Jenson couldn't have overtaken the Red Bulls, clearly Mark was not as quick as Seb or Lewis. With Lewis applying constant pressure to Seb and Seb to Web all sorts of other opportunities may have presented themselves than the ones that actually did.

I think it is a diabolical shame that overtakes on the first lap don't count in the stats as Lewis, Jenson, Schuey and others made some great moves throughout that first lap and well beyond turn one.

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Lap times

Lewis
47 1:30.668
48 1:33.051
49 1:30.576
50 1:30.449

Jenson
47 1:30.886
48 1:31.918
49 1:31.774
50 1:31.015

I didn't notice any errors on any of the above laps from both drivers so the large change in times are odd to say the least

Webber's comments in the post-race interview were very interesting too.
Asked whether there was a reason for Vettel managing to get a jump on him, he replied: "Hmmm, maybe. "You guys need to dig more, somewhere else."

There are rumours that the team owner supports Vettel so the suggestion that Webber was told to turn his engine down while Vettel was told to turn his up will fan the conspiracy flames.

 

[slickskid]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I don't think the Mclaren times are the ones you should be looking at really... You might see alot of speculation on the Red Bull strategy post race, something that was picked up on in the F1 forum.

The rumour currently stands that Webber was told to wind the wick down whereas Vettel it's said went in the opposite direction prior to the incident.

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

There are rumours that the team owner supports Vettel so the suggestion that Webber was told to turn his engine down while Vettel was told to turn his up will fan the conspiracy flames.

Maybe the team owner should learn not to support a jackass who's encore to overtaking is to drive straight into the person he's just overtaken, eliminating himself from the race.

Adds a question to Christian Horner's "They should never have been where they were."

 

[Brogan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

The rumour currently stands that Webber was told to wind the wick down whereas Vettel it's said went in the opposite direction prior to the incident.

Indeed, I edited my post above to state as much.

Autosport are running a story on it: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/84050

Jenson confirms in the BBC post-race interview that Lewis was told to turn his engine down 3 laps before he (Jenson) was: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8713859.stm

Interesting comments on Andrew Benson's latest blog too - he suggests that Red Bull are clearly favouring Vettel: http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/05/pressure_of_f1_battle_beginnin.html

 

[teabagyokel]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Weird, weird stuff. The essential point is that whatever happened, we have a study of two teams attempting to manage a race; one of which did it right and one of which did it wrong.

It looked like the two McLarens may have collided at turn 1, but neither driver at any point put his team-mate in a situation where he would have to cross the white line to keep his car intact.

It seems like Vettel has thus far been fast on some days but all too prone to really stupid mistakes. I know he's only 22, but he's had 2.7 seasons in the sport now and really should be learning. When you've essentially made the pass to even risk that Webber might be there is inexcusible, even if he's not your team-mate.

Jenson Button wasn't daft enough to list into Hamilton at turn 12, nor vice versa. If you are to win the Drivers' Championship, total insanity is not a feature of your season*.

I hope Vettel improves that, because if McLaren improve as I presume they will, a one-two should not be conceded so readily.

OK, so we have seen some madness - Lewis hitting Kimi in Canada 08, Alonso's penalty in practice in Hungary 06, Hakkinen's driver error in Monza 99, Schumi's tunnel breaking in Monaco 04, Villeneuve's yellow flag dsq in 97...

OK, its just not advisable

 

[Desmond]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

It's definitely Sebastien's ego that forced him to make such a daft move. I guess he couldn't accept the fact that Webber was gonna score 3 in a row. In any case, it clearly seems like there seems to be some sort of a favoritism going on in Red Bull just by reading what Chris Horner had to say. Laying the blame on Webber is probably the dumbest thing he could have done and then hearing Webber asking reporters to dig for information elsewhere just looks like a PR disaster to an already disastrous circumstance.

 

[snowy]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Although McLaren got a one two they were actually very unlucky not to have won this race on merit. When Vettel pitted McLaren had no choice but to pit Lewis as a fresh set of prime tyres is nearly one second a lap quicker than a set of used option tyres. Lewis had to cover Seb but his stop was a staggeringly 2.2 seconds slower than Sebastians and 1.5 off Marks! Without the fumbled rear wheel change Lewis could and should have rested the lead of the race.

Pitstops:
Vettel 21.9
Webber 22.7
Hamilton 24.2

Towards the end of the of the softer option tyres Lewis was far quicker than the Mark and hanging on through turn 8 and getting more and more opportunities to threaten an overtake. At the beginning of the harder prime tyres Lewis very nearly got past Sebastian into turn 12 having closed a gap and stuck with him through turn 8 on the second lap of the stint.

It wasn't just Mclaren that were pushing the limits of fuel, Red Bull werealso desperate to conserve fuel:

"We now have all the facts," he said. "Mark had changed down into a fuel saving mode that cost him a little bit of performance on the straights, which also explains how Sebastian got a very clear run on him.

"The large mistake remains that not enough room was given, and the explanation is there on how Sebastian had managed to get into the tow. He had managed to save an extra kilogramme of fuel - as both cars start the race with the same amount of fuel.

"Effectively he had one more lap of the optimum engine mode, but we couldn't back him off because he was under pressure from Lewis Hamilton behind."

 

[siffert_fan]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I see on Autosport that Webber and Vettel are being told to not let the hard feelings from the collision carry over to the next race. To me, this sounds like trouble is brewing at Red Bull

 

[snowy]

Re: 2010 Turkish GP Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

I suspect things at McLaren are no less frosty.

Lewis' retake out of turn one was on the total edge, hovering between stardom and the infamy into which Sebastian plumbeted. They did clash wheels, could have punctured, bent suspension orgone the ariel route taken by the very "fortunate to be alive" Mike Conway.

McLaren shouldn't have put their drivers in that position, they either race or conserve fuel, they can't do both! One or other is always going to get the shaft.

Tim Goss McLaren's Chief Engineer:

"Both our drivers are very, very sensible. They both handled themselves particularly well on the circuit and with the media."