How Good is Sebastian Vettel?

[Mephistopheles]

The Pits I don't think anyone believes that Seb is rubbish I think the difficulty lays in is he as good as the results make out or is it more down to being backed by the team and the equipment he uses, and lets face it if Seb was driving a Caterham this thread probably wouldn't exist, or it may do but with a different drivers name in the title.

In my own obviously flawed opinion (Judging by the way I have been shouted down that is.) there are at least six other drivers on the present grid that could do at least as good a job as Vettel has done which means he's good but then again so are some of the other drivers, he isn't special in that respect.....

 

[mnmracer]

Mephistopheles
When Seb was driving the equivalent of a Caterham, people were talking and asking how good Vettel was, because he was showing great talent, just as they did with Alonso in Minardi.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Seb has never driven the equivalent of a Caterham,, the Toro Rosso he drove was a Newey designed car that was at times faster than the Red Bull, due to it's Ferrari engine I'm sorry but you can't claim that one.

 

[mnmracer]

At least read up on your history before making silly claims

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Yes, he is very good, and there is doubt about that. He is almost certainly at least in the top 5 drivers when it comes to sheer ability, whether that is natural or learned. To your point, all F1 drivers have been noted for their talent at some point. Vettel more-so than many, of course. It doesn't help us to gauge him any better against his peers, though. he has always impressed, for sure, but there are other drivers to be impressed with and at the moment there are two that stand out as being more impressive due to their abiity to win when they haven't got the best wheels under them on race-day. The reason Vettel is not being talked up on this point is that there is little or no evidence to back up a statement of such. This leaves questions unanswered about Vettel where we find answers in his peers. As long as these questions are unanswered then they will always be asked and this thread and it's title will continue to have a worth.

 

[Foaad]

Would this happen to be the same Newey who won zero championships between 2000-2009 ? Or were the drivers of his team as useless as Webber who has obviously not won any championship despite driving Newey car for last 6 years?

 

[mnmracer]

at the moment there are two that stand out as being more impressive due to their abiity to win when they haven't got the best wheels under them on race-day.

Setting aside your claim that Vettel hasn't won withouth the 'best wheels on race-day', when was the last time Lewis did? Or do you consider Kimi the more impressive one? Assuming at least you're not going double standard on us here...

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Foaad. Do you think Caterham would be in better shape if they had Newey on board? It is the nature of motor sport and competition that the best teams and teams with the best personnel in specified roles do not always win. Newey has always made good cars and you are talking about the early phases of the Red Bul project and also his time at McLaren. We all know that McLaren are crap at winning championships but he certainly put some nice cars together for them.

The Torro Rosso was not the equivalent of a Caterham. It was the equivelent of a Torro Rosso

For the record here are Torro Rosso's top ten finishes over the years:

2006 - 7
2007 - 4
2008 - 11
2009 - 7

 

[mnmracer]

Ok, so how much are the Torro Rosso drivers being talked about then?
Point is, when Vettel was in a back-of-the-field car, he was being talked about, just like every great driver has been. Two good races in Japan and China didn't suddenly make it a good car.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I'm loving this it is getting really gritty now, Still not sure about Seb's greatness though....

 

[Mephistopheles]

Ok, so how much are the Torro Rosso drivers being talked about then?
Point is, when Vettel was in a back-of-the-field car, he was being talked about, just like every great driver has been. Two good races in Japan and China didn't suddenly make it a good car.

The Toro Rosso's are no longer being designed by Newey and haven't been for quite a while now which is why they have slipped back through the field.....

 

[Foaad]

So now the argument changes fromhaving Newey to having a good team, I wonder how much superior this makes Red Bull. And regarding the top ten finishes, just how many if those were in the races Vettel drove for them? In fact how many did Vettel account for as a percentage while he drove for them? I woukd guess >80% since he did most of the scoring in 2008.

 

[mnmracer]

Usually the best way for things not to get gritty, is by not making unsubstantiated double-standard claims. Just a suggestion.

 

[mnmracer]

The Toro Rosso's are no longer being designed by Newey and haven't been for quite a while now which is why they have slipped back through the field.....

Which is completely irrelevant.
Vettel was being talked about while in a car that was at the bottom 10er positions.
That's where the current TRs are, yet they're not being talked about.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

mnmracer

This isn't a my driver versus your driver thread so I don't know why you are trying to pin me down as a fanboy of some other driver unless it is to try and invalidate my arguments without a counter argument. We shall move on from that, though.

Kimi, Lewis and Fernando are drivers who all regularly show signs of getting much more out of their machinery than you might expect. Having watched these three over the last few years, it is a brave leap to go against the grain on that popular opinion. The examples which illustrate this are many.

Nothing you can say will answer the questions that people have of Vettel. These questions need to be answered on a race circuit or perhaps they don't need answering at all. Whist they are unanswered, though, they will always be asked. So don't shoot me down for asking. I am pretty sure that it is my entitlement not to be convinced of something.

 

[mnmracer]

ExtremeNinja
Those questions will never be answered to people that have a double standard, they (you as it seems too) will always come up with an excuse. If your only argument is based on a double standard, you should rethink the validity of said argument. If you want to make an argument, make a valid one for goodness sakes, one that does not set a different standard for one driver over the other.

Why is it so hard to be fair?
Why can't you just judge drivers by the same standard?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Ok, so how much are the Torro Rosso drivers being talked about then?

Quite a lot, but not with the same reverence. I think it is clear to everybody that Vettel is better than the current Torro Rosso drivers. If we all agree on that then we are a step close to answering the big question.

Q: How good is Sebastian Vettel?
A: At least as good as Ricciardo and Vergne

 

[Mephistopheles]

The Toro Rosso that Vettel drove was a very good car and nowhere near as bad as today's Caterham it was in the points on a regular bases and won a race that is not unsubstantiated it is a well known and generally accepted fact..

Caterham have never even been close to winning a point let alone winning a race so how on earth can you compare the two, and at the same time suggest that I do not know what I am talking about, maybe I should have said HRT instead but then I suppose that is as good if not better than a Toro Rosso....

 

[ExtremeNinja]

mnmracer.

I don't come on here to fight with you, buddy. I don't call you names or make judgements about you. I discuss the topics. Please do the same..

I am perfectly happy with the standards by which I judge the drivers. That you see them as a double standard is more your problem than mine and something you accuse just about everybody that disagrees with you of. It's getting tiring.

 

[FB]

Guys - can we please not make this personal.

Thanks

FB