When is a race not a race?

[Mephistopheles]

I've got another two penneth for what it is worth which is probably nothing, you can hardly give a drive through during a qualifying session as there would be no point to it.

Also whilst I can't find any official confirmation of this I have read the race has been deemed to have started the moment a driver is strapped into his seat before going to the grid as that is when the parc fermé rules end, as strapping a driver in can be construed as changing the car (I dunno he may have gained or lost weight or summut.) also at this point small changes can be made to the car such as different tyres (For those that are lower than 10th) different tyre pressures front wing angles a drinks bottle will be installed (Which wouldn't be there during qualifying, it's the extra weight you know.) that sort of thing.

And on a lesser point if what I wrote above does not turn out to be true and Michael broke the speed limit before the race had started, the choice of penalty was definitely given after the race was well under way...

And anyway it is also definitely up to the stewards discretion....

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

I don't know if this has been touched on yet, but are we quite sure that the speeding offence occurred after the aborted start (i.e. before the restarted race), or during Schumacher's early pit stop to change tyres after his puncture (i.e. during the race)? Something in his post-retirement interview suggested to me that it may have been the latter.

 

[Brogan]

The speeding occurred after he was pushed back to the pits when he was making his way to the end of the pit lane for the second start.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

That's what everyone assumes Brogan, but do we know this for certain?

 

[Brogan]

Yes, you can see it clearly on the video.
Also, the time of the offence was 14:05 and his first pit stop was at 14:08.

http://184.106.145.74/fia-f1/f1-201...ngarian Grand Prix 2012 DocumentNumber-32.pdf
http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/874/7119/pit_stop_summary.html

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Thanks for that

 

[Fenderman]

In this instance then, Schumi committed the offence whilst the second formation lap was taking place. In which case the race was technically underway since that lap was counted as part of the race distance and according to the reg's it seems.

I'm not sure that there is much left to say on this one but perhaps there are other "races that were not races, really" that we could talk about? What about the infamous Indianapolis unsafe tyres debacle? I for one would be interested in being reminded or hearing about other examples of questionable races and what folks think about them.

 

[Pyrope]

This is an old chestnut, and one you'd have thought settled by now. There have been arguments before about when a race starts, particularly as regards Niki Lauda's Duralit impression in 1976, and Mike Thackwell at the 1980 Canadian GP. Most old timey statisticians only count the race as having started when the race starts, so for years Lauda and Thackwell were both listed DNS and not Retired. However, as Lauda has put it, "if I didn't start the race, what happened to my ******* ear?"

Having had a quick look at the Sporting Regs. I still don't see anywhere that explicitly states when the race rules come into force. It can't be before the dummy grid as there are rules about team members on the track and outside assistance that apply during a race, which are obviously not in place while the mechanics sort the cars on the dummy grid. But beyond that there is nothing. The next event that even looks like a race start is the red lights going out. That would seem to be the logical point. So, from where I sit, Brundle seems to be correct this time (although he has been screamingly wrong in the past). Bad luck Schumi.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I think there is a misunderstanding between the term race and session the race may start at some point as yet unknown to man nor beast but the session starts much earlier than that so race rules and penalties may come into play much earlier than the actual race....

 

[Pyrope]

Mephistopheles, the regulations simply state "the race". You can interpret that any way you like, but your interpretation doesn't tally with the fact that support staff are allowed onto the track and can provide assistance to the cars while on the dummy grid. If the race "session" started when the cars were released from parc fermé then this wouldn't be the case.

 

[Brogan]

It's worth mentioning that all cars are still in parc ferme until the race starts.

34.4 Five hours before the start of the formation lap the seals and covers may be removed but the cars will remain under parc ferme conditions until the start of the race.

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8685/fia.html

 

[Pyrope]

Brogan, nice point, but can you find anything that explicitly states when that is? I can't, so in the absence of any other indication I'm thinking it can only be when the lights go out.

Edit: ...and of course there is no physical "parc" that they "fermé" any more. It's all CCTV monitoring of the team garages these days.

 

[Brogan]

I agree with you Pyrope - I think it's when the lights go out.

As usual though, it's difficult to find a definitive ruling on it, that's unlike the FIA

 

[Mephistopheles]

Okay I've found this stuff.

38.11 If, after returning to the starting grid at the end of the formation lap a problem arises, the following procedures shall apply :
a) If a car develops a problem that could endanger the start the driver must immediately raise his hands above his head and the marshal responsible for that row must immediately wave a yellow flag. If the race director decides the start should be delayed the green lights will be illuminated two seconds after the abort lights are switched on, a board saying “EXTRA FORMATION LAP” will be displayed and all cars able to do so must complete a further formation lap whilst the car which developed the problem is moved into the pit lane.
When leaving the grid to complete the extra formation lap all drivers must respect the pit lane speed limit until they pass pole position.
The team may then attempt to rectify the problem and, if successful, the car may then start from the end of the pit lane. Should there be more than one car involved their starting order will be determined by the order in which they reached the end of the pit lane.
Every time this happens the race will be shortened by one lap.

I take the sentence I have highlighted to mean that any driver exceeding the pit lane limit will be dealt with under race conditions which means a drive through penalty Schumacher may have been in the pit lane but it was the second formation lap which means he is bound by the race penalty of a drive through and not a fine.

And this reg says the stewards can do what the hell they like and in fact Schumacher could have been excluded from the race and so he actually got off lightly..

38.15 The stewards may use any video or electronic means to assist them in reaching a decision. The stewards may overrule judges of fact. A breach of the provisions of the Code or these Sporting Regulations relating to the starting procedure, may result in the exclusion of the car and driver concerned from the Event.

I think this clarifies things....

 

[Brogan]

I take my highlighted phrase to mean that any driver exceeding the pit lane limit will be dealt with under race conditions which means a drive through penalty

That's what we haven't been able to determine and I still don't agree that it's race conditions as the race hasn't started.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I just believe is was because it was the second formation lap that makes the difference, and the last reg I've quoted really says it all any breach of the rules during the start procedure can mean a driver being black flagged..

The race may not have actually started when Schumacher breached the rules but it was definitely committed under the start procedure regulations....

 

[Pyrope]

Two points Mephistopheles:

Firstly, the first highlighted phrase you note refers to cars on the track, not cars in the pit lane. The pit lane speed limit is always 100 kph outside the free practice sessions (when it is only 60 kph) but, surprise surprise, there isn't usually a speed limit on track. The imposition of the pit lane speed limit on track at the start of a second or subsequent formation lap is to avoid a second Riccardo Paletti. This has very little bearing on the Schumacher case, as the question here isn't whether he was speeding in the pit lane (and as he wasn't on track, the phrase that you highlight is completely meaningless) but whether the drive through was the correct penalty.

Secondly, I really don't see how you can interpret that phrase as meaning that the race has started. Which bit of it says that?

 

[Mephistopheles]

I believe it is irrelevant where the offence is committed under the starting procedure regulations as they stand as there is no separate regulation to cover the pit lane and the track as separate entities under these circumstances and so the only reg available must be applied....

Edit

I did not interpret the phrase to mean the race has started I interpreted to mean the start procedure had started and that Schumacher was bound by start procedure regulations and hence the start procedure penalties for the offence.

Nobody can deny that the start procedure was under way and that everyone concerned including mechanics and drivers are bound by those particular set of rules, surely...

 

[Pyrope]

Eh? You are comparing apples and oranges now. The pit lane has its own section of the regulations, with regs that are always in force. The only time that the pit regulations are altered is during free practice, when speed limits are tightened. At over 111 kph Schumacher was always going to be penalised in some way, but the pit lane regulations specifically state that those penalties are different whether the offence is committed in the race or at any other time. Schumacher didn't break the regulations that refer to the starting procedure, they don't make any mention of speeding in the pit lane, he broke the pit regulations.

 

[Pyrope]

Mephistopheles, certainly the start procedure was under way. But as I said, Schumacher didn't break any of those regulations, he broke pit lane regulations. Show me the part of the section dealing with the start procedure that overrides the pit regulations?