Tyre Allocations and Team Quota for 2011

[Grizzly]

Well, I thought that it could mean they are listening to our valid concerns and acting on them!

I spotted the Autosport article late last night and thought it was good news that they have this option and are going to use it. The article pretty directly says "to allow further running/plenty of mileage..." aside from the fact the original purpose was to try experimental tyres. Its good news for teams and fans. Even if it is currently only a small concession...

 

[Porceliamone]

Well, as I'm going to Silverstone this year I hope they get the 'quota' right by then. I don't fancy sitting there on the Friday staring at a predominantly empty track for the two 1.5 hour sessions.
Hell, even with 12 sets in the forthcoming race this weekend (Brogan posted about above) there will be limited running.

The fact that the Pirellis degrade almost twice as fast as last years tyres absolutely dictates that the teams cannot run anywhere near as much in practice as they did last year. Even then, the track was usually dead for half an hour before anything happened!

Basically, twenty laps on a practice stint and they throw the tyres in the bin, regardless of compound.

There will most definitely be limited running in the practice sessions to preserve tyres, without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[Galahad]

Basically, twenty laps on a practice stint and they throw the tyres in the bin, regardless of compound.

That was the case at a chilly Catalunya. I'm hopeful that it won't be so severe at a mild Melbourne, particularly on the harder compound. But time will tell.

 

[Enja]

But time will tell.

Yes, it will, despite the many psychics we have around here.

 

[Porceliamone]

Yes, it will, despite the many psychics we have around here.

It's not conjecture or being a psychic as you put it.

The established facts about degradation and the number of laps possible on each tyre dictate that there is no other possible conclusion to come to - unless the teams suddenly decide to run on bald and dangerous rubber that's falling to pieces every weekend.

The teams will not be able to do a similar number of laps in practice this year as they did last. They have fewer sets of faster degrading tyres. It's maths.

 

[Grizzly]

^^ Witchcraft!

 

[Enja]

It's not conjecture or being a psychic as you put it.

The established facts about degradation and the number of laps possible on each tyre dictate that there is no other possible conclusion to come to - unless the teams suddenly decide to run on bald and dangerous rubber that's falling to pieces every weekend.

The teams will not be able to do a similar number of laps in practice this year as they did last. They have fewer sets of faster degrading tyres. It's maths.

I've never said that it won't happen. Initially. For a start, the initial impressions (or, er, "facts") of the tyre were based around testing where we are not sure if the temperatures were best suited for this current generation of tyre. Maybe the tyres last a few laps more in warmer conditions. Maybe less. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows.

The reason I'm calling some of the people here psychics is because they presume they know everything and that it will play out in a terrible manner where there is less running and no action on a Friday, "oh, heaven forbid! How could they let Formula 1 descend into this chaos?"

As I've said before - and will say again - I do not believe that the powers that be are stupid when it comes to this topic. I do not believe Pirelli are stupid. I do not believe FOTA are stupid. I also believe that they are aware that to have a moving, changing season you are going to need running on Fridays - and I believe they will, if it becomes a problem, make the appropriate changes. Practice is a surprisingly big draw. When the moans come, they will ask for changes either in the tyres, or the number produced. And don't forget Pirelli have already admitted they want experimental tyres every Friday to alter the performance and longevity of the tyres.

With current testing regulations as they are, Friday running is invaluable to the teams. They will, at some points, be forced to use tyres they don't want to, borne out of necessity. And at some stage, I really believe we will see changes in some guise or another.

It feels every day I come to Clip the Apex I am seeing a raft of comments bemoaning the situation with the tyres, or the rear wing, or this or that. The truth is neither I nor you know what will happen, how it will happen, and what moves the sport will make to improve or change it. Some people seem to assume that things are set in stone, whereas from what I've seen they are clearly not. Personally I am really looking forward to the season ahead and I will be interested to see how the teams handle the tyres at the start of the season.

All the time I'm reading comments here about how awful things are going to be, and quite frankly, I'm sick of it.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Enja, a passionate and eloquently put plea there!

As you say, I'm sure the FIA will act if Fridays turn into unofficial rest days, they can't afford not to. And anyway, the main thing is still the race itself, rather than the practice days.
And actually, I am looking forward to seeing how both the tyres and the adjustable wings play out, after some initial scepticsim. What encourages me on both counts is the likely increased importance of the involvement of the driver. Opportunities will surely arise for mistakes and heroics, both of which could make the racing more exciting.

 

[Grizzly]

I don't think you should dismiss the discussion though. Think I've been very careful to avoid scepticism in this regard and just ask what people think and giving my opinion, while putting the facts, actual facts, forward. Clearly, the tyre manufacturers and other involved parties have come to exactly the same conclusion, and decided there is a necessity to exploit the additional tyre rule in a quick, lets get them some extra rubber before reviewing the rules during the opening races type way. All this has served to do, is validate my claims.

I think everyone here knows i am actually a fan of the rear wing concept if they can get it to work correctly (Ive taken my share of flack for defending it too!) and the high degradation tyre, so that does not originate here, but ultimately, as with any, this is a fan-boy forum (IE, we are not the FIA, we're not the teams, we're not FOM etc) and speculation and discussion, fore and aft, is what we thrive on.

 

[Pyrope]

Well, as I'm going to Silverstone this year I hope they get the 'quota' right by then. I don't fancy sitting there on the Friday staring at a predominantly empty track for the two 1.5 hour sessions.

Hmm... I'm torn. I'll be at the Montreal race weekend, and although I know I'm paying for Seb, Lewis et al., I can't help but wonder whether limited running on Friday might mean more time to enjoy the Historic Grand Prix (http://www.historicgrandprix.com/) races... Cosworth V8, Ferrari Flat-12 and BRM V12 cars all blasting through twists of Parc Jean Drapeau. Admittedly, mostly being piloted by arthritic geriatrics, but although the driving might be sub-par the noise isn't!

[/gloat]

 

[Porceliamone]

I've never said that it won't happen. Initially. For a start, the initial impressions (or, er, "facts") of the tyre were based around testing where we are not sure if the temperatures were best suited for this current generation of tyre. Maybe the tyres last a few laps more in warmer conditions. Maybe less. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows.

The reason I'm calling some of the people here psychics is because they presume they know everything and that it will play out in a terrible manner where there is less running and no action on a Friday, "oh, heaven forbid! How could they let Formula 1 descend into this chaos?"

As I've said before - and will say again - I do not believe that the powers that be are stupid when it comes to this topic. I do not believe Pirelli are stupid. I do not believe FOTA are stupid. I also believe that they are aware that to have a moving, changing season you are going to need running on Fridays - and I believe they will, if it becomes a problem, make the appropriate changes. Practice is a surprisingly big draw. When the moans come, they will ask for changes either in the tyres, or the number produced. And don't forget Pirelli have already admitted they want experimental tyres every Friday to alter the performance and longevity of the tyres.

With current testing regulations as they are, Friday running is invaluable to the teams. They will, at some points, be forced to use tyres they don't want to, borne out of necessity. And at some stage, I really believe we will see changes in some guise or another.

It feels every day I come to Clip The Apex I am seeing a raft of comments bemoaning the situation with the tyres, or the rear wing, or this or that. The truth is neither I nor you know what will happen, how it will happen, and what moves the sport will make to improve or change it. Some people seem to assume that things are set in stone, whereas from what I've seen they are clearly not. Personally I am really looking forward to the season ahead and I will be interested to see how the teams handle the tyres at the start of the season.

All the time I'm reading comments here about how awful things are going to be, and quite frankly, I'm sick of it.

I'm saying there will be less running during Friday practice, at least until they increase the tyre allocation (if they do) because the teams won't be able to run as many laps on (less sets of) the faster degrading tyres. Lets face it, it is (a, err) fact that the tyres have been deliberately designed to wear out faster.

And actually, yes, I might find it a bit "awful" if after paying nigh on £400 for a race weekend ticket I get to see the F1 cars for about the same amount of time as the GP2 runners, or any other class for that matter.

Have you ever actually paid for and been to a F1 GP yourself? If you have then I'm sure you'll appreciate the sheer frustration of sitting in a stand waiting for the product of which you paid for to appear and for it to only reveal itself for a reduced period of the time stated. A bit like ordering pizza only for the delivery guy to show up with a quarter of it missing and then he still expects a tip...

If the rule changes encourage this, or furthermore force this behaviour from the teams then absolutely yes, I am going to feel short changed and it will be "awful". I have no qualms about admitting it or venting my displeasure about it here, in a thread posted to encourage discussion on the subject.

 

[Brogan]

I do not believe that the powers that be are stupid

I do.

They've proven it too many times to believe otherwise.

 

[Enja]

A bit like ordering pizza only for the delivery guy to show up with a quarter of it missing and he still expects a tip...

If you were a true psychic you'd have seen that one coming.

I am guessing it's considered poor etiquette to simply quote my own post in it's entirety to emphasise a point. Oh well.

I'm saying there will be less running during Friday practice

Which we agree on, in principle. I would speculate there will be less running. As you say, the "maths" would draw that conclusion. Only, we disagree on the difference between fact and speculation. And we disagree on the degree to which there will be less running, since, y'know, neither of us has seen a second of F1 practice in 2011.

at least until they increase the tyre allocation

Which was what I was saying.

(if they do)

Which I believe they will, if it becomes a significant enough problem.

Lets face it, it is (a, err) fact that the tyres have been deliberately designed to wear out faster.

Yes. It isn't, however, a fact that the tyres were designed to essentially ruin Friday practice for everyone.

And actually, yes, I might find it a bit "awful" if after paying nigh on £400 for a race weekend ticket I get to see the F1 cars for about the same amount of time as the GP2 runners, or any other class for that matter.

Well if that happens I am sorry that you paid £400 for something that you didn't expect to happen. Secondly, I don't know if you're saying you've bought those tickets already, but if you had, why wouldn't you wait a few races until you know roughly what to expect?

Have you ever actually paid for and been to a F1 GP yourself?

Nope.

If the rule changes encourage this, or furthermore force this behaviour from the teams then absolutely yes, I am going to feel short changed and it will be "awful".

If this premonition comes to fruition it will be unfortunate. But I see no reason why the teams would be happy to get less feedback, grumpy(er) fans and less airtime.

I have no qualms about admitting it or venting my displeasure about it here, in a thread posted to encourage discussion on the subject.

Cool.

 

[FB]

I'm prepared to wait and see what happens with the tyres. It might be uber exciting, it might be a damp squib. One of the problems with F1 at the moment is that FOM (who I blame mostly) and FIA are desperately flailing about trying to make the racing "more exciting" when, often, the simplest way is to leave the rules alone. In the case of the tyres FOM specifically asked, if we are to believe the press statements, to make a tyre which degrades more quickly, which begs the question, why? To generate excitement into the sport based on what happened in Canada last year?

Risk is we end up with the teams trying to jump each other in the pits again as we did back in 2007/8 so less overtaking. Or maybe one team or driver makes their tyres last better and we have lots of overtaking by one or two teams or drivers and then everyone shouts "unfair".

Wouldn't it be better though to let the car makers choose their own tyre suppliers and if one team wants to run the whole race on one set then that's up to them. Similarly another team may choose to make 3 stops for new rubber believing it will give them an advantage - Vive la Difference. Not possible given the current rule makers unfortunately.

The issue with the rear wing has been discussed, at length, elsewhere. Suffice to say much to contrived for my liking, especially the rather limited zone it can be used in. If KERS can be used anywhere on the track why not the collapsing wing? Especially when they can use the wing whenever they want in practice and qualie but are then limited in the race. DOH!

Just on leaving the rules alone, the longer they are left the closer the teams get to one another in performance, the more exciting the racing. If it 'aint broke don't fix it. Next some joker will be suggesting we have artificial wet races as wet race are often "more exciting" Hang on...

 

[Brogan]

One of the problems with F1 at the moment is that FOM (who I blame mostly) and FIA are desperately flailing about trying to make the racing "more exciting" when, often, the simplest way is to leave the rules alone. In the case of the tyres FOM specifically asked, if we are to believe the press statements, to make a tyre which degrades more quickly, which begs the question, why? To generate excitement into the sport based on what happened in Canada last year?

Spot on FB.

Artificial nonsense for the sake of it.

 

[FB]

It feels every day I come to Clip The Apex I am seeing a raft of comments bemoaning the situation with the tyres, or the rear wing, or this or that. The truth is neither I nor you know what will happen, how it will happen, and what moves the sport will make to improve or change it. Some people seem to assume that things are set in stone, whereas from what I've seen they are clearly not. Personally I am really looking forward to the season ahead and I will be interested to see how the teams handle the tyres at the start of the season.

All the time I'm reading comments here about how awful things are going to be, and quite frankly, I'm sick of it.

But speculation and conjecture are the life blood of all sport Enja. One person's "fact" is another's "opinion". I agree to wait and see but what harm is there is speculating and ruminating on the "what if's" and "maybe's" of the coming season? We've all waited a long time and, as ever, testing has raised more questions than it has answers so don't get too upset when others want to vent a little, express a concern or an opinion.

 

[Enja]

I think a short, self-imposed break from this website is the sensible thing to do here. I am happy to discuss and debate with anyone but with some people in a sort of psychological bottleneck I don't feel like there's going to be much worthwhile discussion for me to get into just yet.

Like others I hope that the idea that things are going downhill is not true, however I will be one of the first to be dissatisfied if my own speculative thoughts don't get much traction in F1.

When the season gets underway proper, I'll be delighted to get back into what matters here : the actual racing. Whether it's good, bad or downright horrid we'll all be able to have more fulfilling, interesting and informed discussions.

I wish everyone a very happy week leading up to the Grand Prix, and I will see you in the chat.

 

[MCLS]

On the surface it looks like they are sacrificing practice time for more exciting racing. But we'll have to see what happens until Melbourne to see on practice running etc. Tyre degredation might be similar to Barcelona levels due to the weather in Melbourne at this time of year.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Two things:

1. Is it proven that if performance between competing teams converges, under stable rules, racing becomes more exciting as a result? I don't think so; the opposite may even be true. A lot of overtaking in the past happened because the performance spread over the whole grid was much larger than it has been of late. And if those very rules make overtaking difficult to the point of near impossibility, then stability is no help whatsoever and change might very well be just what is needed. It's just that what sort of change is right is at question.

2. Let's be careful not to lay too much blame at the FIA's feet. The adjustable wing, for example, was a FOTA idea. And everyone and his dog seemed to think that more marginal tyres would be a great idea, immediately after last year's Canadian GP.

 

[sportsman]

Two things:

1. Is it proven that if performance between competing teams converges, under stable rules, racing becomes more exciting as a result? I don't think so; the opposite may even be true. A lot of overtaking in the past happened because the performance spread over the whole grid was much larger than it has been of late. And if those very rules make overtaking difficult to the point of near impossibility, then stability is no help whatsoever and change might very well be just what is needed. It's just that what sort of change is right is at question.

2. Let's be careful not to lay too much blame at the FIA's feet. The adjustable wing, for example, was a FOTA idea. And everyone and his dog seemed to think that more marginal tyres would be a great idea, immediately after last year's Canadian GP.

Thats the way I remember it as well.
Many people immediately blame the the FIA for everything.
Limited testing is at FOTA's behest to reduce costs.The FIA simply wrote their requirements into the rules.
The two compound rule was introduced when a single tyre supplier was appointed simply to get their name mentioned.
Most of the changes that have been made by the FIA and FOTA have been an attempt to "improve the show" for the casual TV viewer.
To most of us they appear ridiculous but without the casual TV viewers the TV companies would not be interested in paying FOM's huge fees for their World feed.
Without TV revenue all of the teams would suffer a huge drop in income as less money would available for WCC points.