Time for Red Bull & McLaren to decide
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Muddytalker
Points Scorer
So... If he's racing hard at Brazil, but in a position less than 17pts ahead of Alonso, and less than 6pts better than Webber, is he suddenly going to change tack mid-race and support Lewis?
Or is this in fact just media PR garbage and a total non-story? He knows he's out of it, and with only 2 podiums since Canada has been out of it for a while.
Or is this in fact just media PR garbage and a total non-story? He knows he's out of it, and with only 2 podiums since Canada has been out of it for a while.
RickD
Pole Sitter
Different strokes Bro, at the point in the season that Massa got the infamous message, there was still a chance for both Ferraris to join the party. With only 2 races to go, you couldn't blame a team or team-mates for moving over.Brogan said:
Saying that though, what happens if Massa is faster than Alonso in Brasil? Will Felipe have to let him through? If so, does anyone think that perhaps Alonso might not finish due to a bottle to the head or similar reason (Or the Ferrari garage possibly getting overrun)..
That would spice things up..
Brogan said:
The article says he only needs a 1st and a 2nd place to win the title and it is possible if the 4 other drivers in front of him all fall off the road in both races. One or 2 of them may retire but barring 2 1st corner pile ups I can't see it happening. All Jenson is doing here is damaging his reputation in the team. Its good to have the never say die attitude that us Brits are famous for but sometimes you have to face facts and do the best for the team.
Regardless of his chances of winning the drivers title Jenson should still put his maximum effort towards scoring as many points as possible as the WCC is still to play for. This is why McLaren have the outside chance for that title and not Ferrari even though Massa is the only driver to complete every lap this season.
If the Red Bull stays reliable team orders will decide this championship.
Alonso's extra points in Germany has been well documented and discussed but if Red Bull are to win this championship they will need to get Webber in front of Vettel. This certainly won't be done over the radio or any other method that leaves a record.
Webber doesn't have the speed to get in front of Vettel in either qualifying or race trim. Vettel will either have to make a mistake going into a corner which lets Webber by or a mysterious mechanical issue will affect the number 5 car for just long enough for Webber to go by. These can be engineered and Horners latest statement is probably smoke and mirrors to let us think team orders are not part of the Red Bull ethos.
Alonso's extra points in Germany has been well documented and discussed but if Red Bull are to win this championship they will need to get Webber in front of Vettel. This certainly won't be done over the radio or any other method that leaves a record.
Webber doesn't have the speed to get in front of Vettel in either qualifying or race trim. Vettel will either have to make a mistake going into a corner which lets Webber by or a mysterious mechanical issue will affect the number 5 car for just long enough for Webber to go by. These can be engineered and Horners latest statement is probably smoke and mirrors to let us think team orders are not part of the Red Bull ethos.
I believe Button is just posturing for his fans and/or letting his pride get in the way of common sense. But I've already said that I find it unlikely that Jense would find himself in a position to help out in any meaningful fashion anyway.
One thing is clear though that both McLaren and Red Bull should be concerned about. Teammates that fight out a year long battle for supremacy rarely end up with the WDC crown, unless of course both car and driver are well ahead of the pack like the Senna/Prost McLaren days.
The prime examples of this scenario are 1986 and 2007, where two drivers from the same team often took points off each other, allowing another driver to stay in touch and eventually overhaul the two others. Unsurprisingly, these are really the only two seasons (since 78) where multiple drivers from one team were battling with a driver from another team for the title at the very end of the year.
Since 1990, the World Champion has beaten his teammate by a very comfortable margin in all but a couple seasons. Interestingly, 2007 was the smallest margin of victory by a WDC over his teammate (16 points), which I suppose illustrates the dominance of the Ferrari's and McLarens that year. Only in 1996 (19 points) and 2009 (18 points) was the winning margin of the WDC over his teammate less than 20 points, and 2009 was a very odd championship where the WDC drove the 2nd half of the season in cruise-control. So we're left with 1996 as the most recent example of where two teammates battled throughout the season and one still came out with the championship. And I think it's fair to say the competition from the other cars in the field was underwhelming that year.
Bottom Line: If you are fighting a close battle with a constructor that has their eggs firmly placed in the basket of a specific driver, you had better get behind one of your own if you want to win the WDC.
One thing is clear though that both McLaren and Red Bull should be concerned about. Teammates that fight out a year long battle for supremacy rarely end up with the WDC crown, unless of course both car and driver are well ahead of the pack like the Senna/Prost McLaren days.
The prime examples of this scenario are 1986 and 2007, where two drivers from the same team often took points off each other, allowing another driver to stay in touch and eventually overhaul the two others. Unsurprisingly, these are really the only two seasons (since 78) where multiple drivers from one team were battling with a driver from another team for the title at the very end of the year.
Since 1990, the World Champion has beaten his teammate by a very comfortable margin in all but a couple seasons. Interestingly, 2007 was the smallest margin of victory by a WDC over his teammate (16 points), which I suppose illustrates the dominance of the Ferrari's and McLarens that year. Only in 1996 (19 points) and 2009 (18 points) was the winning margin of the WDC over his teammate less than 20 points, and 2009 was a very odd championship where the WDC drove the 2nd half of the season in cruise-control. So we're left with 1996 as the most recent example of where two teammates battled throughout the season and one still came out with the championship. And I think it's fair to say the competition from the other cars in the field was underwhelming that year.
Bottom Line: If you are fighting a close battle with a constructor that has their eggs firmly placed in the basket of a specific driver, you had better get behind one of your own if you want to win the WDC.
Brogan said:Webber has outqualified Vettel 7 times this season.F1Yorkshire said:
In races he has also finished ahead of Vettel 7 times.
In the last 9 races the only places where Webber outqualified Vettel were at the high speed tracks of Spa and Monza. On current form Vettel is leaving Webber far behind. This could be due to the car been engineered to suit Vettels driving style.
I think it's fair to say in 1996 that Villeneuve knew and accepted his position as 2nd driver to Hill. If I recall he was fast enough to take a first win in his first race in Australia but was told by the team not to challenge and accepted it with good grace (at least outwardly). His father must be considered the best No.2 driver of all time as he could quite easily have more closely challenged Jody Scheckter in his championship year but did what was best for the team.
Although Button may not want to admit it his title challenge is over and surely he would help Hamilton out if he could? That said, it may be that he couldn't accept taking the No.2 car to Lewis next season and won't help. Who knows, let's see if they find themselves in circumstances where he can influence the title race. Not sure it would help inter-team relations if he didn't though; Rene Arnoux at Renault refused to help Prost in his title bid in 1982 and left for Ferrari at the end of the season.
Although Button may not want to admit it his title challenge is over and surely he would help Hamilton out if he could? That said, it may be that he couldn't accept taking the No.2 car to Lewis next season and won't help. Who knows, let's see if they find themselves in circumstances where he can influence the title race. Not sure it would help inter-team relations if he didn't though; Rene Arnoux at Renault refused to help Prost in his title bid in 1982 and left for Ferrari at the end of the season.
I wonder if Kimi Raikkonen thought he was 'Out of it' in 2007, with two races to go and 17 points behind (with 10 points for a win)?
WDC Winning Margin over their Teammate
2009: Button 95 - 77 over Barrichello (-18)
2008: Hamilton 98 - 53 over Kovalainen (-45)
2007: Raikkonen 110 - 94 over Massa (-16)
2006: Alonso 134 - 72 over Fisichella (-62)
2005: Alonso 133 - 58 over Fisichella (-75)
2004: Schumacher 148 - 114 over Barrichello (-34)
2003: Schumacher 93 - 65 over Barrichello (-28)
2002: Schumacher 144 - 77 over Barrichello (-67)
2001: Schumacher 123 - 56 over Barrichello (-67)
2000: Schumacher 108 - 62 over Barrichello (-46)
1999: Hakkinen 76 - 48 over Coulthard (-28)
1998: Hakkinen 100 - 56 over Coulthard (-44)
1997: Villeneuve 81 - 42 over Frentzen (-39)
1996: Hill 97 - 78 over Villeneuve (-19)
1995: Schumacher 102 - 45 over Herbert (-57)
1994: Schumacher 92 - 10 over Verstappen* (-82)
1993: Prost 99 - 69 over Hill (-30)
1992: Mansell 108 - 56 over Patrese (-52)
1991: Senna 96 - 43 over Berger (-53)
1990: Senna 78 - 43 over Berger (-35)
Button has one big difference with all of the losing teammates on this list though. Not one of them had won a Championship before playing a support role. Only Hill and Villeneuve went on to win a title afterwards.
2008 is the most interesting year for me here. If somebody other than Kovalainen was in that McLaren seat, there is a decent chance that Hamilton is still looking for his first WDC. If Heikki stole one more point from Lewis somewhere along the line, Massa is holding the 2008 Championship right now.
2009: Button 95 - 77 over Barrichello (-18)
2008: Hamilton 98 - 53 over Kovalainen (-45)
2007: Raikkonen 110 - 94 over Massa (-16)
2006: Alonso 134 - 72 over Fisichella (-62)
2005: Alonso 133 - 58 over Fisichella (-75)
2004: Schumacher 148 - 114 over Barrichello (-34)
2003: Schumacher 93 - 65 over Barrichello (-28)
2002: Schumacher 144 - 77 over Barrichello (-67)
2001: Schumacher 123 - 56 over Barrichello (-67)
2000: Schumacher 108 - 62 over Barrichello (-46)
1999: Hakkinen 76 - 48 over Coulthard (-28)
1998: Hakkinen 100 - 56 over Coulthard (-44)
1997: Villeneuve 81 - 42 over Frentzen (-39)
1996: Hill 97 - 78 over Villeneuve (-19)
1995: Schumacher 102 - 45 over Herbert (-57)
1994: Schumacher 92 - 10 over Verstappen* (-82)
1993: Prost 99 - 69 over Hill (-30)
1992: Mansell 108 - 56 over Patrese (-52)
1991: Senna 96 - 43 over Berger (-53)
1990: Senna 78 - 43 over Berger (-35)
Button has one big difference with all of the losing teammates on this list though. Not one of them had won a Championship before playing a support role. Only Hill and Villeneuve went on to win a title afterwards.
2008 is the most interesting year for me here. If somebody other than Kovalainen was in that McLaren seat, there is a decent chance that Hamilton is still looking for his first WDC. If Heikki stole one more point from Lewis somewhere along the line, Massa is holding the 2008 Championship right now.
FB said:
As I understand it, it was only an oil leak that prevented Jacques from taking victory in his first Grand Prix. That's not to say that he didn't recognize his number 2 status later in the year though.
Chad Stewarthill said:
I think any decision will be made after Interlagos.
If Vettel wins with Webber 2nd and Alonso 3rd the table will look like this:
Alonso 246
Webber 238
Vettel 231
Red Bull can still win both titles in Abu Dhabi with a 1-2 in Webbers favour.
If Alonso fails to finish or if he is outside the points in Brazil the table will look like this:
Webber 238
Alonso 231
Vettel 231
Only 7 points would separate the 3 drivers with all to play for in the final race. If Vettel wins he will take the championship as he would of won more races.
sadly, I think it's going to be a case that Red Bull will not support Webber in a bid to become WDC. I don't know if it's because they are more interested in winning the WCC (which comes with more prize money, albeit without the coveted 1 on the front of the car) or whether they'd prefer Alonso to be WDC if it can't be Vettel.
In any case, it could be argued that had either Whitmarsh or Horner said that they would support Hamilton or Webber, they could be accused of team orders. What they say in private is another matter.
In any case, it could be argued that had either Whitmarsh or Horner said that they would support Hamilton or Webber, they could be accused of team orders. What they say in private is another matter.
Chad Stewarthill said:
But Kimi only had to jump 2 drivers. Jenson has to leapfrog 4 drivers that have been consistently faster than him all year.
Muddytalker
Points Scorer
KekeTheKing said:
One of which is his own teammate, which is the key thing to remember.
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