Time for Red Bull & McLaren to decide
- Thread starter FB
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Just a thought, are Red Bull in a Ferrari '99 type situation? When Schumie broke his leg at Silverstone Irvine suddenly found himself in a position to win the Championship but I never felt Ferrari wanted him to be the one to break the title drought. Schumie paid lip service to helping him but it was pretty obvious his heart wasn't in it.
Are Red Bull likely to scupper Webber's chances as it's not the bloke they want to win?
Are Red Bull likely to scupper Webber's chances as it's not the bloke they want to win?
I can't see Red Bull getting behind Mark.
It may be too late anyway as Alonso only has to finish in 3rd place at the last 2 races to take the title by a single point.
With the Ferrari being the 2nd best car on the grid, I can't see there being much to stop him, barring mechanical failures or driver error.
Edit: Ignore me, it's only an 11 point lead over Mark, 21 over Lewis.
It may be too late anyway as Alonso only has to finish in 3rd place at the last 2 races to take the title by a single point.
With the Ferrari being the 2nd best car on the grid, I can't see there being much to stop him, barring mechanical failures or driver error.
Edit: Ignore me, it's only an 11 point lead over Mark, 21 over Lewis.
I don't think they need to decide anything just yet; for once I agree with David Coulthard. They just have to see how the next two races play out, and even then they may not be in a position to do anything.
As Martin Brundle pointed out, Alonso's so-called 'advantage' in being the clear No. 1 driver at Ferrari, is a bit meaningless in practice because Massa is too far behind anyway to be of much help. Today was Felipe's best result for a while yet he still got nowhere near Alonso, and took no points off the opposition (he was always behind both Red Bulls and Button ruled himself out of it).
Just what are Mclaren or Red Bull supposed to do? for instance, Hamilton has consistently outqualified and outraced Button, so in what way is Jenson supposed to 'support' Lewis (other than try and take points off the opposition, which I presume he is trying to do anyway)?
The only practical way these teams can prioritise Webber or Hamilton is if Vettel or Button find themselves directly ahead of their respective teammates and therefore in a position to make a switch. At Mclaren at least, that doesn't look very likely at the moment.
As Martin Brundle pointed out, Alonso's so-called 'advantage' in being the clear No. 1 driver at Ferrari, is a bit meaningless in practice because Massa is too far behind anyway to be of much help. Today was Felipe's best result for a while yet he still got nowhere near Alonso, and took no points off the opposition (he was always behind both Red Bulls and Button ruled himself out of it).
Just what are Mclaren or Red Bull supposed to do? for instance, Hamilton has consistently outqualified and outraced Button, so in what way is Jenson supposed to 'support' Lewis (other than try and take points off the opposition, which I presume he is trying to do anyway)?
The only practical way these teams can prioritise Webber or Hamilton is if Vettel or Button find themselves directly ahead of their respective teammates and therefore in a position to make a switch. At Mclaren at least, that doesn't look very likely at the moment.
Yes, but at Red Bull it is quite likely that Vettel will be the faster driver in the final two races. However, the arithmetic doesn't check out because he's 25 points behind Alonso - hence he needs a 12.5 average points advantage over the Spaniard to take the title.
Mark is 11 points behind (6.5 average - two wins enough!) and Lewis is 21 points behind (10.5 average).
I think due to a lack of pace from the silver cars, it is Webber vs Alonso. All being equal there's only one winner, but Red Bull and Ferrari are not equal, but Webber needs his team-mate to help.
Seb & Jense - out of it!
Mark is 11 points behind (6.5 average - two wins enough!) and Lewis is 21 points behind (10.5 average).
I think due to a lack of pace from the silver cars, it is Webber vs Alonso. All being equal there's only one winner, but Red Bull and Ferrari are not equal, but Webber needs his team-mate to help.
Seb & Jense - out of it!
Chad Stewarthill said:
My thoughts exactly. I don't recall many (any?) situations this year when Lewis was "stuck" behind Jenson.
But if a situation like Suzuka presented itself, where Jenson is behind an ailing Lewis, and the nearest competitors are well back and in no position to take places off either of them, they would be smart to try and hold position.
I don't think McLaren need to worry too much about Button's support role, I believe he will help out in the unlikely scenario that he is in position to do so.
ATL11
Pole Sitter
FB said:
I do hope common sense prevails for RBR and they support Webber with gritted teeth or they could see both the Drivers and Constructors taken away from them.
They have to get Vettel to support Webber and ensure they have at least 1 if not both. 2 wins for Webber and he's champion, 2 wins for vettel and a shed load of luck and he's champion.
In the end though it's for the top brass in German decide!
So if Vettel moves over for Webber at either of the next 2 races, will there be the same outcry as when Massa moved over for Alonso?
Presumably if Webber did win the WDC then it would also be undeserved, as people have said Alonso's will be if he wins it by less than 8 points.
Presumably if Webber did win the WDC then it would also be undeserved, as people have said Alonso's will be if he wins it by less than 8 points.
Brogan said:
We won't see it next race as Horners golden boy can still win the championship. After Interlagos if Vettel is out of the running and 'team orders' are used to get Webber in front what can the stewards do about it? It was shown in Germany that any decision taken after the event will get thrown out in court so something will have to be done on the day of the race.
BlackCountryBob
Rookie
I think the decision is less imperative for McLaren as Jenson seems to be struggling and is not really looking likely to take points off Lewis; add to that neither of them have particularly good records at Interlagos so I find it unlikely it will crop up.
However, for Red Bull, here is my question, 10 laps to go in Brazil, the Red Bulls 1&2 with Vettel in P1, Lewis and Alonso are 3rd and 4th (predicted points if this were true)
1 Alonso 243
2 Webber 238
3 Vettel 231
4 Hamilton 225
So if that was how it was (completely hypothetically), could you really see Horner asking Vettel to let Webber pass because it would be for the best for the team in getting Webber to go into the last race 2 points clear of Alonso but leaving Vettel 19 points back and all but out of it? It is the call I would make but I just cannot see that decision being made in favour of Mark, they would go into the last race just like above rather than playing the odds.
However, for Red Bull, here is my question, 10 laps to go in Brazil, the Red Bulls 1&2 with Vettel in P1, Lewis and Alonso are 3rd and 4th (predicted points if this were true)
1 Alonso 243
2 Webber 238
3 Vettel 231
4 Hamilton 225
So if that was how it was (completely hypothetically), could you really see Horner asking Vettel to let Webber pass because it would be for the best for the team in getting Webber to go into the last race 2 points clear of Alonso but leaving Vettel 19 points back and all but out of it? It is the call I would make but I just cannot see that decision being made in favour of Mark, they would go into the last race just like above rather than playing the odds.
There was a telling remark on the BBC forum after the race in which Jenson addressed this exact point and the gist was "I can still win it mathematically but realistically....."
I think he knows what he now has to do without being told TBH.
Red Bull....hmmmm I really can't see them getting behind Mark imho but we are *for sure* in for a cracking last 2 races
* so very sorry
I think he knows what he now has to do without being told TBH.
Red Bull....hmmmm I really can't see them getting behind Mark imho but we are *for sure* in for a cracking last 2 races
* so very sorry
No support for Webber in Brazil from Red Bull...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 122092.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 122092.stm
Of course they would say that, but they're daft if its true.
I'm no Alonso fan but I want him to win it this year just so he can wipe those smug looks off Horners and Vettels faces. They have had the dominant car for the last 18 months but have nothing to show for it. Newey may be a technical genius but next years car might not be the class of the field so this could be Red Bulls best chance of taking both titles.
Horner should back the driver with the best chance of winning the title but first he needs to take his blinkers off and realise Vettel has the same chance of winning as Hamilton.
Alonso just needs to turn up and get his car on the podium which makes him the clear favourite now.
Horner should back the driver with the best chance of winning the title but first he needs to take his blinkers off and realise Vettel has the same chance of winning as Hamilton.
Alonso just needs to turn up and get his car on the podium which makes him the clear favourite now.
F1Yorkshire said:
If Webber wins 2 races then 2 seconds is not enough for Alonso.
Vettel is 25 points behind. One point less than Alonso in the next race and he is outta there. He's got too much to gain and no chance of doing it.
If Vettel finishes in Brazil first and Alonso third, Vettel still needs a miracle in Abu Dhabi.
teabagyokel said:
Thats the common sense way of looking at it but will Horner order his golden boy to move over for Webber? Like him or not Vettel is the fastest driver on a qualifying lap so it is highly likely he will be on pole for the last 2 races.
The championship is now a 3 horse race with Hamilton a rank outsider. Button will do what he can to help Hamilton, I don't think he needs to be told what he needs to do. Alonso had the backing of his team the second he signed his contract. Red Bull are backing the wrong driver which is why I believe they are going to end the season with nothing.
Really, the ideal outcome is that Red Bull win the WCC, since they have the best car, and either Nando or Lewis win the WDC because they are better drivers.
teabagyokel said:
I think McLaren have an outside chance of claiming the WCC. They are only 27 points behind now. If Hamilton wins in Brazil with Alonso 2nd, Webber 3rd and if Vettel loses another engine* depending on how well Button scores, McLaren could close the gap on Red Bull to just a few points with one race to go.
*Vettel only has used engines left
Barring failures and mistakes, it's between Alonso and Webber.F1Yorkshire said:
Vettel is too far behind to be able to make up the gap to the second best car on the grid.
All Alonso has to do is finish 3d and 4th (or higher) at each of the next two races and he will still finish ahead of Vettel.
Those 8 points from Germany are looking very useful right now.
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