The Rubber Conundrum

[Enja]

Are you ok using the time loss figure?

That is the difference between going through the pitlane at 62mph and going around the track. ie the actual time in the pitlane is 21s + whatever it takes to cover the same distance on the circuit, isn't it?

Not quite sure what you mean, but the way I understood that figure was that driving at 62mph for the length of the pit lane would cost 21s.

It's a lot simpler than using the pit lane length to calculate any gain made by increase the speed limit.
Just do it as a percentage of the increase.

So to make it easy, if the time in the pit lane at 100kph is 25 seconds, if we increase the time by 10% to 110kph then the time will reduce by 10%, or 2.5 seconds (roughly).

Yes, perhaps it is, but my mind doesn't work like that and I had already had a look at some of the figures involved. Plus it made me use my brain a little bit, something that rarely gets done

 

[Muddytalker]

Is this thread sponsored by Durex?

Enja is spot on with the tyres. I've said in the past that Bridgestone should concentrate on making a tyre that will last the race, and work on softer compounds from that point, rather than what appears to be them make a supersoft tyre that lasts one lap, and increase the compounds in increments from there.

Interesting point about pit lane too. I agree, the speed is unlikely to be increased due to safety (although with refuelling banned, this could be used as an argument to increase it slightly).

With regards to your figures enja, 21.8 sec is stated as the loss for a car being in pitlane (I assume this doesn't take into account the stopped time). Bearing in mind that a car not in the pits will travel from the start of pitlane to it's exit, would this make the time travelling in pitlane longer than 21.8sec, maybe 27 or 28 sec? (I think this would then make the pitlane even longer?) - Edit before posting - I see jez has made the same point

There was definitely a window of opportunity to get rid of the 2-compound rule for next year though (as well as one to get rid of the double diffusers once and for all by re-writing the regs), which as usual has been missed, (perhaps due to the vested interests of some teams?).

 

[FB]

http://www.trails.com/googlemap.aspx

Using the link above I have measured the distance between the two white speed limit lines as 260m. This makes the time traveling at 100kph 9.4 seconds but obvioulsy doesn't take into account decleration and acceleration time.

 

[fat jez]

http://www.trails.com/googlemap.aspx

Using the link above I have measured the distance between the two white speed limit lines as 260m. This makes the time traveling at 100kph 9.4 seconds but obvioulsy doesn't take into account decleration and acceleration time.

So a 10% increase in speed would result in a 10% time saving (roughly), or about 0.9seconds. And that's with one of the worst pit lanes in terms of time penalties. I don't think we'll see an increase in pit lane speed for that small an impact - not at the risk of compromising safety. What we will probably see is mechanics not wearing the fireproof overalls they currently have to wear, as per practice sessions.

Personally, I'd like to see them get rid of this silly option tyre business, as I don't think it adds anything to the spectacle. Give them teams a fixed number of tyres to use at an event and that's it. Mind you, I'd also like to see a choice of tyre manufacturers again, maybe opening it up to Dunlop or Goodyear as well as Michelin and Bridgestone, just to add some variety into what is rapidly becoming a very restricted formula.

 

[Enja]

Is this thread sponsored by Durex?

Enja is spot on with the tyres. I've said in the past that Bridgestone should concentrate on making a tyre that will last the race, and work on softer compounds from that point, rather than what appears to be them make a supersoft tyre that lasts one lap, and increase the compounds in increments from there.

Interesting point about pit lane too. I agree, the speed is unlikely to be increased due to safety (although with refuelling banned, this could be used as an argument to increase it slightly).

With regards to your figures enja, 21.8 sec is stated as the loss for a car being in pitlane (I assume this doesn't take into account the stopped time). Bearing in mind that a car not in the pits will travel from the start of pitlane to it's exit, would this make the time travelling in pitlane longer than 21.8sec, maybe 27 or 28 sec? (I think this would then make the pitlane even longer?) - Edit before posting - I see jez has made the same point

There was definitely a window of opportunity to get rid of the 2-compound rule for next year though (as well as one to get rid of the double diffusers once and for all by re-writing the regs), which as usual has been missed, (perhaps due to the vested interests of some teams?).

Aha. I see what you mean - at least, I think I do.

I'm assuming you mean the deceleration to ensure you're within the speed limit and the subsequent acceleration once you're leaving? That seems quite hard to calculate so it's more straightforward to stick to the data we have.

Either way, the gain in time if the speed limit was increased is easy to see. I realise it's an unrealistic suggestion, so I guess that's the idealistic in me trying to shine through.

Completely agree about tyres too, but again I can see another problem. Bridgestone already brings, I think, 1800 or so tyres to every GP weekend? Believe I heard that on radio 5 live.

This says they bring roughly 40,000 across the season, but apparently that includes pre season tests too, so the 1800 figure is a rough estimation.

If Bridgestone were to bring more compounds of tyres - assuming they get the same number of sets as they do with the current compounds - that would also increase freight costs and needs. Bernie pays the freight and travel costs for these things, and with more costs involved it'd mean Bernie would have to stump up some extra cash to help improve the sport.

Now, when was the last time he did that..

Edit before posting..

Using the link above I have measured the distance between the two white speed limit lines as 260m. This makes the time traveling at 100kph 9.4 seconds but obvioulsy doesn't take into account decleration and acceleration time.

Thank you! So does that mean the Williams estimate includes the time when the car is stationary? If it is, I wish they'd say that to make it clearer

 

[Muddytalker]

I wasn't suggesting more compounds, just make the start point a tyre that will last and then make 3 more compounds, each slightly softer than the last, rather than make a super soft tyre, and 3 compounds slightly less soft. Same number of tyres, just harder tyres that will last longer.

I'm not sure you get what we're saying about the pitlane times.

Imagine the Silverstone circuit, at the point of pitlane entry (Point A), Hamilton is side by side with Raikkonen.
Hamilton enters pit lane, Raikkonen carries on, on the main track.
Start the clock.
After around 6, maybe 7 seconds, KR will have reached the part of the track where the pitlane ends (Point B).
LH will reach that same point, according to the link, some time later.
The link and advice from Williams suggests that this time loss is 21.8 seconds, however, the actual pitlane travel time would be 21.8 seconds + time taken for KR to travel from point A to point B, i.e. around 28 seconds (using my 6-7 seconds assumption).

 

[FB]

I would read the Williams article as saying it adds 21.8 seconds in total to the lap time so this is going through the wiggly bits at the entrance to the pit lane, slowing down to the speed limit, fueling, accelerating back up to the speed limit after the stop and then getting back to full speed again once back on the track.

The only way to really know the cost would be to look at the lap times for some of the cars 2 laps before pitting and then an average of the of their pitstop lap and the first lap back as the time is lost over two laps rather than just one (I think) as they break the timing beam in the pit lane.

Anyone have access to the individual lap times for each driver at Silverstone?

 

[Brogan]

The 21.8 seconds is what it would cost on top of a normal lap time if you were to do a drive through penalty say.

So the entrance to the pit lane, driving through at 100kph and then the exit from the pit lane before rejoining the circuit.

Any time due to refuelling or tyres would be in addition to this.

 

[Enja]

Still not really getting it

I feel like a right idiot.

So.. Traveling the 260m of the pitlane (points A to B), by my new calculations, takes 9.3 seconds at 62mph.

The 21.8 seconds comes from the time Hamilton wouldn't have lost if he hadn't gone into the pit lane, correct? So the time loss is a calculation of the difference between the two cars' speed?

So, adding a 4 second tyre stop for, er, posterity, that's :

9.3 seconds on the pit lane limiter
21.8 seconds Hamilton lost from not going at racing speeds
4 seconds for tyres

ends up at, and this is just an example, 35.1 seconds. So when Hamilton comes out of the pits, he is 35.1 seconds behind Raikkonen.

Is that right?

Hold on, as I type this and look at the new posts that have come up, this would mean the difference between traveling the 260m at racing speeds and traveling the 260m at pit lane speeds is 12.5 seconds. That doesn't sound right.

Bah, I am getting myself into a muddle here. Probably best if I just accepted that it's not going to change, anyway

 

[jez101]

I make it 800m or so on both the pedometer and using maths...!

time loss 21 secs
track speed 180 mph
pitlane speed 62 mph

1mph = 0.45 m/s

track speed 80.47 m/s
pitlane speed 27.72 m/s

explanation: 21s + time at 180mph = time at 62mph, time at 180mph = distance / 80.47m/s, time at 62mph = distance / 27.72m/s
ie. 21 = d/27.72 - d/80.47
ie. 21 = d (1/27.72 - 1/80.47)
ie. d = 21 x 1 / (1/27.72 - 1/80.47)

pitlane length 887.87 metres

time at track speed 11.03
time at pitlane speed 32.03

calculated time lost 21 seconds
check ok

pitlane time at 70mph 28.37 seconds
pitlane loss 17.34 seconds

pitlane time at 80mph 24.83 seconds
pitlane loss 13.79 seconds


Doesn't take into account acceleration or deceleration but the result seems to be that an increase of 10mph save 3.5 seconds...

 

[Muddytalker]

That could all be right, but it's Friday afternoon and my brain will explode if I try working it all out, so I'll take your word for it.