Sebastian Vettel

Lots of threads have alluded to having a discussion about the current world champion so lets get it all off our collective chests (oooeer!)

Lots has been has been written about this young man from his testing debut with BMW Sauber in 2006 aged just 19 - he then progressed to the the toro rosso team for his first full race season in 2008 - the memorable race being his drive in the wet at Fuji where he managed to rear end his future team mate Mark Webber who said ""It's kids isn't it... kids with not enough experience – they do a good job and then they fuck it all up." - Little was Mark to know he would be paired with the "Kid" just 2 years later.

His maiden win came at the 2008 Italian GP where he qualified up from, the race started under the safety car in the rain and the young German led from start to finish in the Toro Rosso - becoming the youngest winner of a grand prix ever.

Then we enter the era of the Red Bull. In 2009 he joined the Red Bull team, which got off to a torrid start as he managed to crash into Kubika in Australia, a feat he would go on to repeat during the 09 season.

Last year needs no mention........

So to the crux of the matter. Is Sebastian Vettel?

the real deal, the baby schumi, the new pretender - a genuine racer? - aka Wunderkind

or

A very quick driver, who lucked into a very fast car and can bang it on pole and lead from lights to flag and be the quickest pilot of a car, yet can't overtake for toffee? aka WunOrAother

 

[Josh]

I feel there areas of his technique and ability where he would do well to improve on. I am also sure that this would be to his own benefit.

This is purely out of curiosity: which areas are you talking about?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

This is purely out of curiosity: which areas are you talking about?

To name a few:

Ability to get the best 1 lap pace out of a car which is not set up to his liking.
Ability to know when to give another driver quarter so as not to turn a sure cert move into a gamble.
Ability to gel with a teammate and get them on side, even when you are beating them
Ability to admit one's own mistakes
Ability to be gracious in defeat
... I could continue and could do the same for any driver, but if I do then I know that some people are going to get really upset.

For some reason or another, some of you will think this is a personal attack but, to those of you who do, I will offer that it is perhaps less rational to consider any driver or human being to be perfect.

I am a self confessed fan of Lewis Hamilton, for example, but I am also one of his biggest critics (figure of speech, I'm sure there are many bigger, for the avoidance of doubt).

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I see Vettel as a young man who has a way to go before he matures into a fully formed racing driver - he has been faced with a couple of hiccups this season (after two blinders which led to WDCs) and is not coping terribly well - I understandthat and am sure that he is perfectly capable of learning and growing into a multiple WDC.

We are in absolute agreement, apart from your bit about measurement. How do you know he is not a fully formed racing driver if you have no concept of what the measure of what a fully formed racing driver is?

 

[Jen]

We are in absolute agreement, apart from your bit about measurement. How do you know he is not a fully formed racing driver if you have no concept of what the measure of what a fully formed racing driver is?

I suspect it is the same perception as yours Ninja - we just approach it from different angles perhaps.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I suspect it is the same perception as yours Ninja - we just approach it from different angles perhaps.

Isn't it funny when two people are saying the same thing and yet debate still commences?

 

[Jen]

Isn't it funny when two people are saying the same thing and yet debate still commences?

I hate the 'scientific is all' approach - if it ain't on paper it ain't real, type of thing - it's not often intuition and science meet.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I hate the 'scientific is all' approach - if it ain't on paper it ain't real, type of thing - it's not often intuition and science meet.

I think both are equally important. In my work as a User Experience Architect I cannot ignore either. They are certainly not at odds with each other.

 

[Jen]

No idea what a UEA is and, please don't explain . I will however point up to you in any succeeding debates the fact that you are favouring one approach to the other

 

[ExtremeNinja]

No idea what a UEA is and, please don't explain . I will however point up to you in any succeeding debates the fact that you are favouring one approach to the other

No I'm not. That is your perception.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Doesn't matter how rounded or 'complete' or polished the guy is, there is no denying his raw talent and absolute speed, everything he has been asked to do he has, overtake, win from not pole, etc

We have to assume that given time he can do everything required of an F1 racer extremely well, it's not his fault he had the best car, he hasnt so far this season and apart from a 50/50 incident (common when you are in a hurry amongst desperados in slower cars) he hasn't done badly at all. He spilt the faster McLarens last race and was doing ok before his 'racing incident' with Karthe who had already been clobbered by Button and was probably a little nervous

Everyone wanted to see him in not the best car? Well we are now but let's give the chap a chance, it's only been 1 issue or he'd be second

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Doesn't matter how rounded or 'complete' or polished the guy is,

Well, it does

there is no denying his raw talent and absolute speed

...and I wouldn't

everything he has been asked to do he has, overtake, win from not pole, etc

This is where I contend.

 

[sportsman]

Some interesting observations made in this thread.I am not a Vettel fan or inded a fan of any driver or team.I mean it when I say I am an unbiased observer.
But something I rarely say that after over fifty years of watching F1 and many years of actual racing competition myself I would never assume that I was in any way competent to judge any F1 driver.
Its easy to sit in an archair and watch endless replays on youtube and then decide any driver should have done this that or the other.In many instances these drivers have fractions of seconds to make decisions and sometimes they make mistakes.
Added to which it is impossible to gain any accurate perception of actual race incidents from a single angle on a TV screen.
And forming opinions of a drivers character from TV interviews sometimes when the driver is still pumped full of adrenaline or disappointement is quite frankly a waste of time.

 

[Brogan]

Not much has been said about Vettel ignoring the order to retire his car at Malaysia.
Apparently he did have radio problems but the order was also given on the pit board and Vettel has confirmed he was aware of it.

In my opinion, Red Bull were trying to pull a fast one by retiring the car so they could get a free gearbox change for China.
In which case, Vettel may have done them a favour as they would have been in trouble from the FIA for retiring a car without a valid reason.

However, I suspect a few people within the team will be unimpressed with Vettel deliberately ignoring an order.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

How long before he asks everyone if it is because he is black? I can see some similarities between this rapid young upshot and another tempetuous driver who has quickly risen to the top table only to be forced to eat humble pie for a while once he got there. It is early, and his period of diminished competitiveness may not last long, but it will be interesting to see how he continues to cope with the reality check that is being dished out to him at the moment.

Hopefully he will show some strength of character and adapt rather than pointing fingers everywhere but in the mirror. As we have seen over the years, that sort of attitude can quickly be your undoing. Here's hoping he rides the storm with grace and dignity.

 

[Galahad]

Not much has been said about Vettel ignoring the order to retire his car at Malaysia.
Apparently he did have radio problems but the order was also given on the pit board and Vettel has confirmed he was aware of it.

In my opinion, Red Bull were trying to pull a fast one by retiring the car so they could get a free gearbox change for China.
In which case, Vettel may have done them a favour as they would have been in trouble from the FIA for retiring a car without a valid reason.

However, I suspect a few people within the team will be unimpressed with Vettel deliberately ignoring an order.

The team said that the contact with Karthikeyan had damaged a brake duct and caused a rapid rise in rear brake temperature, hence the order to retire, so I think I can maybe stamp on that nascent conspiracy. Nothing to do with Seb failing to obey, of course.

 

[Il_leone]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2012/03/vettel_collision_a_champion_un.html

Here's a blog from Andrew Benson

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17550940

Here;s the response from Narain

Seb's already made a few mistakes this season and showing he still has a lot of growing up to do

 

[racecub]

Excuse me as i ramble a while. I think you have to seperate Vettel's driving error from his poor behaviour after it.
His crash wasn't intentional, it was an accident, this is motor racing, it happens.
His behaviour afterwards was something else. I teach very young children, so as you can imagine a lot of time is spent talking about 'doing the right thing'. We call it 'making good choices'. We also accept that people will invariably make bad choices sometimes...do the wrong thing. But this is also ok, if the perpetrator realises the error of judgement, apologises and learns from the mistake. Vettel did 'the birdie' twice at narain...ok heat of battle,bad choice..... but he didnt apologise after the race, he called him an idiot, no remorse about that bad decision, so no learning from it . Now, Vettel isnt a four year old, and he has done this before when he's crashed into someone (Webber). If he cant accept that this is not acceptable behaviour, he wont change.

I wasnt keen on Vettel a couple of years ago, but last year I changed my opinion and began to like him. Now Im thrown back somewhat to my first impression. Maybe last year, with the luxury of a much faster car, he didnt find himself in the position where he may make poor behaviour choices.

 

[RasputinLives]

Excuse me as i ramble a while. I think you have to seperate Vettel's driving error from his poor behaviour after it.
His crash wasn't intentional, it was an accident, this is motor racing, it happens.
His behaviour afterwards was something else. I teach very young children, so as you can imagine a lot of time is spent talking about 'doing the right thing'. We call it 'making good choices'. We also accept that people will invariably make bad choices sometimes...do the wrong thing. But this is also ok, if the perpetrator realises the error of judgement, apologises and learns from the mistake. Vettel did 'the birdie' twice at narain...ok heat of battle,bad choice..... but he didnt apologise after the race, he called him an idiot, no remorse about that bad decision, so no learning from it . Now, Vettel isnt a four year old, and he has done this before when he's crashed into someone (Webber). If he cant accept that this is not acceptable behaviour, he wont change.

I wasnt keen on Vettel a couple of years ago, but last year I changed my opinion and began to like him. Now Im thrown back somewhat to my first impression. Maybe last year, with the luxury of a much faster car, he didnt find himself in the position where he may make poor behaviour choices.

I completely agree with you about learning from bad decisions and consequences I think you also have to remember the immense pressure that is on these guys. We've seen this sort of behaviour from Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso of late and if you look back in F1's past its full of similar stuff. Anyone remember DC flipping Schumie the bird when he passed him? Senna punching Irvine? Schumie attempting to kill DC? Piquet punching another driver? And numerous other fist shaking incidents and calling drivers names etc.

Now, apart from Piquet, you usually find as time goes by drivers express remorse for their actions and admitt that they were wrong. Certainly DC and Schumie have both sat down and apologised to each other but that fact is at the time they didn't because at the time the pressure was so intense and they felt locked in such mind games that it must be like any time they back down and admit they were wrong about something is showing a chink in their armour to their enemies.

I don't agree with Sebastian's actions either but I'm not dismissing him as a knob just yet.

 

[Brogan]

However, I suspect a few people within the team will be unimpressed with Vettel deliberately ignoring an order.

It would seem I was wrong.
Horner only has good things to say about Vettel - he really is the golden child as far as he is concerned: http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/7638646/

But then the temperatures continue to increase and that was when we said come on, okay, right let's see if we can get him to stop the car because we just don't want to take any risk with his safety.
"But those messages unfortunately didn't get through to the car. Sebastian, as it turned out, didn't really use the brakes at all on that last lap and was keen to see the chequered flag."

Which is a lie as Vettel confirmed after the race he saw/heard the messages but wanted to finish the race and see the chequered flag.

 

[Foaad]

Found an interesting link that compares different shots and racing lines.

http://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/rhdat/karthikeyan_penalised_for_vettelincident/c45vnrp

I find it funny that even though stewards penalised NK, people are still blaming Vettel, NK even saying that "God knows what Vettel said to the stewards", implying that they based the decision not on video and telemetry but his opinion.