I'm surprised de la Rosa wasn't released for his behaviour. The fact that Alonso didn't attend the hearing when he was one of the key witnesses really goes to show what a coward he is.
Ron Dennis: "The truth will come out"
- Thread starter Brogan
- Start date
I am too, it seems to me that he started it (with the e-mails), but who knows, there's probably more to it than we think and several McLaren employees could have done something that are still with them, maybe, maybe not.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
http://cliptheapex.com/threads/ron-dennis-the-truth-will-come-out.4108/#post-91879
Set up information from another teams cars is absolutely useless. The myriad of technical differences between the designs means that there is no relationship between the effects of a set up on one teams car with those affecting another. In addition, set ups are changed throughout the practise sessions on a race weekend which means that even if we are talking about the baseline settings those are quickly redundant as the weekend progresses.
With regard to strategies, these also change throughout the practise sessions as they are determined by how the cars (and indeed the drivers) behave on the track. All of the teams watch each other and try to figure out the oppositions strategies. That's all part of the natural order of things.
A little tip ... It does one well to question the agenda of the sources of information and to remember to be critical of everything you read, even when it appears to come from those of a like mind. Application of a little logic helps to weed out the claptrap from the useful.
Set up information from another teams cars is absolutely useless. The myriad of technical differences between the designs means that there is no relationship between the effects of a set up on one teams car with those affecting another. In addition, set ups are changed throughout the practise sessions on a race weekend which means that even if we are talking about the baseline settings those are quickly redundant as the weekend progresses.
With regard to strategies, these also change throughout the practise sessions as they are determined by how the cars (and indeed the drivers) behave on the track. All of the teams watch each other and try to figure out the oppositions strategies. That's all part of the natural order of things.
A little tip ... It does one well to question the agenda of the sources of information and to remember to be critical of everything you read, even when it appears to come from those of a like mind. Application of a little logic helps to weed out the claptrap from the useful.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
The fact is he was doing nothing different to just about anybody else. I can't recall who right now but a number of insiders at the time said that kind of info' sharing was rife throughout the whole paddock.
Edit: I've just noticed that I am dangerously close to boring people so I'm going to shut up now.
http://cliptheapex.com/threads/ron-dennis-the-truth-will-come-out.4108/#post-91879
Set up information from another teams cars is absolutely useless. The myriad of technical differences between the designs means that there is no relationship between the effects of a set up on one teams car with those affecting another. In addition, set ups are changed throughout the practise sessions on a race weekend which means that even if we are talking about the baseline settings those are quickly redundant as the weekend progresses.
With regard to strategies, these also change throughout the practise sessions as they are determined by how the cars (and indeed the drivers) behave on the track. All of the teams watch each other and try to figure out the oppositions strategies. That's all part of the natural order of things.
A little tip ... It does one well to question the agenda of the sources of information and to remember to be critical of everything you read, even when it appears to come from those of a like mind. Application of a little logic helps to weed out the claptrap from the useful.
That's from the link you gave me about the e-mails. Set-up might be useless it might not be, but their must be a reason why they were looking at them and testing them out, among several other things such as "tyre gas" and "braking systems" etc.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Oh. okay, I'll say just one thing more. They are discussing "gross" issues there. Yes, weight distribution can be described as a set up issue however, the term usually refers to the specific adjustments of ride height, rake, wing adjustment, actual tyre pressures (as opposed to the what is in them), gear ratios, etc. Again, that sort of discussion is not uncommon even today. It had little real impact on the Spy Scandal. Stepney claims that the information was two way and that Ferrari got the same kind of info' about their competition as well.
Anyway, I have no intention of boring all and sundry any further. Folk's can take it or leave it.
Edit: No-FIAt-please found a nice piece in his post:
http://cliptheapex.com/threads/ron-dennis-the-truth-will-come-out.4108/#post-91879
Anyway, I have no intention of boring all and sundry any further. Folk's can take it or leave it.
Edit: No-FIAt-please found a nice piece in his post:
http://cliptheapex.com/threads/ron-dennis-the-truth-will-come-out.4108/#post-91879
The exchange of data was between Stepney and Coughlan. Coughlan distributed some of it internally by both emails and showing some of the data to various engineers. From those who gave evidence they either told Coughlan that they were not interested or just brushed him aside. How true that is we will never know, but it does seem odd that all the designers in the know were not interested in the way which others tackled the same problems.
It seems to have all come about because Stepney expected promotion when Brawn went on a year's gardening leave but was hunted aside into what he considered was a lower value position. Then he realised that Ferrari were using a flexible floor, which was illegal. He pointed this out to the relevant managers who replied that they knew that, but would continue to use it until the FIA told them not to. Stepney decided to get his own back on Ferrari so he contacted Coughlan and gave him information.
There were two interesting things which came out very briefly. One was that Stepney said that the exchanges were both ways and once when he was shown the design data (the book involved in the photo-copying episode), he said that it was not that information that he had given Coughlan. However as Stepney was under investigation by the Italian police it seemed to be swept under the carpet.
The one thing that we never found out was what was the white powder Stepney allegedly put in the empty petrol tanks of the cars before they went out to the circuits. It did sound a bit odd as the tanks would be filled, emptied, refilled and so on several times before qualifying, surely if the powder was going to have any effect it would be in free practice. In the end it looked as though a deal was done between Stepney, Ferrari and the Italian justice system, so nothing came out in open court.
It seems to have all come about because Stepney expected promotion when Brawn went on a year's gardening leave but was hunted aside into what he considered was a lower value position. Then he realised that Ferrari were using a flexible floor, which was illegal. He pointed this out to the relevant managers who replied that they knew that, but would continue to use it until the FIA told them not to. Stepney decided to get his own back on Ferrari so he contacted Coughlan and gave him information.
There were two interesting things which came out very briefly. One was that Stepney said that the exchanges were both ways and once when he was shown the design data (the book involved in the photo-copying episode), he said that it was not that information that he had given Coughlan. However as Stepney was under investigation by the Italian police it seemed to be swept under the carpet.
The one thing that we never found out was what was the white powder Stepney allegedly put in the empty petrol tanks of the cars before they went out to the circuits. It did sound a bit odd as the tanks would be filled, emptied, refilled and so on several times before qualifying, surely if the powder was going to have any effect it would be in free practice. In the end it looked as though a deal was done between Stepney, Ferrari and the Italian justice system, so nothing came out in open court.
tranquility2k9
Podium Finisher
I've just read through this whole thread. A few things still don't add up for me in this whole saga. The emails almost look like they're written by PR not the drivers themselves. It's all very strange. At least this is 1 burden that cannot get associated with F1's latest pantomime villain . . .
Dizzi
Podium Finisher
Good discussion guys & some moot points.
I think there's a handful of people who know the real truth & it's unlikely we 'commoners' will ever know the full story.
To be honest I'd have found the information passing the opposite direction more believable, after all the 2007/1008 McLaren was an evolution of a Newey design, so I'm not surprised Stepney allegedly said it was two way.
As for my opinion - well, confused! After all that's happened in F1 I could believe anything including the personal vendetta theory, I just hope it will come out one day.
I'm sure I heard somewhere (sorry can't remember where) the Bridgestone guys insisting Hamilton was brought in for tyres in China 07 but being told that he had to stay out because McLaren 'weren't allowed' to win any championships that year. I think that's where RD's comment about "we're racing Alonso not Kimi" came from.
I hope someone else remembers this or I'm going crackers
I think there's a handful of people who know the real truth & it's unlikely we 'commoners' will ever know the full story.
To be honest I'd have found the information passing the opposite direction more believable, after all the 2007/1008 McLaren was an evolution of a Newey design, so I'm not surprised Stepney allegedly said it was two way.
As for my opinion - well, confused! After all that's happened in F1 I could believe anything including the personal vendetta theory, I just hope it will come out one day.
I'm sure I heard somewhere (sorry can't remember where) the Bridgestone guys insisting Hamilton was brought in for tyres in China 07 but being told that he had to stay out because McLaren 'weren't allowed' to win any championships that year. I think that's where RD's comment about "we're racing Alonso not Kimi" came from.
I hope someone else remembers this or I'm going crackers
As far as I am aware, it has been reported that for 2 or 3 laps Bridgestone were demanding/begging that Hamilton be brought in due to tyre wear.
Why McLaren didn't and left him out until the canvas was visible (unheard of in modern F1), I guess we'll never know.
Yes the man who drives machines at 200mph in close proximity to other machines putting his life at risk everytime he goes out and still pushes to the limit is a coward. Good reasoning.
Yes the man who drives machines at 200mph in close proximity to other machines putting his life at risk everytime he goes out and still pushes to the limit is a coward. Good reasoning.
Ok I'll rephrase, it shows the type of character Alonso has. First off he is one the people sending secret Ferrari data, then rats his team out followed finally by him washing his hands of the whole event by not even turning up to the ruling.
In fairness to Fernando I think the relationship with Mclaren had broken down so much by that point that I doubt they would have wanted him there.
As to the original discussion, I wonder who Ron is waiting to retire/die/become mentally unstable before letting the "truth" come out. Also, his "truth" might not be the same as other peoples - its all down to perception and your point of view.
As to the original discussion, I wonder who Ron is waiting to retire/die/become mentally unstable before letting the "truth" come out. Also, his "truth" might not be the same as other peoples - its all down to perception and your point of view.
I think 'rats' out is a funny phase. I think its a culture thing. If me and you robbed an old Granny's house and I was the one to come forward and tell people I would be considered the worst of the pairing for I am a rat. Has always interested me.
I don't think a single individual involved in the whole scandal comes off looking good but interesting you should single Alonso out for his character attributes. We've all been involved in things we've not come off looking the best in I'm sure just the difference is that ours don't get splashed all over the internet.
Some hippy dressed in white once said 'judge not less thy be judged' and I kinda like that. I don't think any of us on here are qualified to discuss anything about any drivers on here that isn't to do with their skills as a racing driver.
I don't think a single individual involved in the whole scandal comes off looking good but interesting you should single Alonso out for his character attributes. We've all been involved in things we've not come off looking the best in I'm sure just the difference is that ours don't get splashed all over the internet.
Some hippy dressed in white once said 'judge not less thy be judged' and I kinda like that. I don't think any of us on here are qualified to discuss anything about any drivers on here that isn't to do with their skills as a racing driver.
Since I don't have any inside information about the whole affair, I cannot claim to know fact from fiction in that regard. However, forty years of being a engineer have taught me that no engineering info is ever truly "obsolete" and "useless". While it may not be applicable immediately, it frequently suggests areas of research which the recipient hadn't thought of, or may show that an area you are just starting to investigate leads to a technological blind alley. Such revalations can be priceless. Some Da Vinci engineering still had relevance centuries after his demise.
I didn't say Fernando was innocent of any wrong doing just find it strange that out of the dozens of people who themselves were involved in all sorts of wrong doing it seems to be Mr Alonso who gets singled out as 'coward' and it being declared 'it really shows his character' especially 4 years after the event.
Ever done something you're not proud of as a 26 year old? If we've moved on from judging Mclaren on this issue why is it a lasting judgement for Fernando?
Oh well - I guess every superhero needs a supervillian
Ever done something you're not proud of as a 26 year old? If we've moved on from judging Mclaren on this issue why is it a lasting judgement for Fernando?
Oh well - I guess every superhero needs a supervillian
Where do you get it from that Alonso was sending Ferrari data? He didn't have anything to do with Ferrari at that time. The only Ferrari data that he knew was supplied via Stepney and Coughlan.
If you really want some who ratted look for the person who ratted on the team agreement in Hungary.
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