Current Red Bull Racing

Il_leone · 8 November 2013

How do you police cost control because Red Bull said they were within the agreement whilst other teams said they;ve broken it
- it is all part of the power play in F1

Red Bull's attitude supposedly are we're the underdogs being ganged up by bigger established teams because they don't like us winning

you will always get that accusation when one team dominates they are cheating over another team who was not as good in exploiting opportunities first. The master of that was Jean Todt when he was Ferrari team principal he was good at making sure the other teams did not gain advantages and start accusing them of cheating and somehow Ferrari always seems to get the favourable decisions

Bill Boddy · 8 November 2013

That was because they had a protector in Max Mosley. he stated publicly that Ferrari were given advantages over the other teams, one of which was being able to veto any devices that teams put on their cars that Ferrari did not have/couldn't get to work.

Fenderman · 17 November 2013

I posted this earlier whilst eating supper during the build up programme. Chomping whilst typing introduced a cut & paste error whilst editing down verbose original so I thought I'd correct and repost here as I have limited edit time privilege.

Very interesting piece on the Skypad ~~just then~~ earlier, revealing another secret of the RBR's success. The humid conditions yesterday allowed us to see how the Red Bull's front wing controls the vortex along the side of the car to "seal" the airflow under the car. Along with the Coanda effect at the rear diffuser this allows them to maintain good ground effect yet raise the rear of the car higher than the competition. In comparison the Ferrari's wing just spills the air out behind the front wheels creating turbulence and therefore drag.

Blog Zbod · 19 November 2013

Fenderman said:
I posted this earlier whilst eating supper during the build up programme. Chomping whilst typing introduced a cut & paste error whilst editing down verbose original so I thought I'd correct and repost here as I have limited edit time privilege.

Very interesting piece on the Skypad ~~just then~~ earlier, revealing another secret of the RBR's success. The humid conditions yesterday allowed us to see how the Red Bull's front wing controls the vortex along the side of the car to "seal" the airflow under the car. Along with the Coanda effect at the rear diffuser this allows them to maintain good ground effect yet raise the rear of the car higher than the competition. In comparison the Ferrari's wing just spills the air out behind the front wheels creating turbulence and therefore drag.

The final piece of the puzzle was getting the linked suspension sussed. The higher rear suspension ordinarily would mean exaggerated body roll, which otherwise might have imperiled the "sealing." But the linked suspension limits the body roll, further supporting the extreme rake.

There is a staff editorial in the December issue of F1 Racing magazine considering the impact on RBR of the departures of Peter Prodromou and Dan Fallows. Accodring to this article, some of it comes down to just how much Prodromou contributed to innovation, and how much he simply was Newey's draftsman, which is an unknown.

They do mention that Newey has a history of producing the top-performing chassis whenever there is major change to the constructor's rules, as he did with the Leyton House March in 1989, and the 1998 McLaren MP4-13 (first season of the narrow track cars), and the 2009 RB5 with the pullrod rear suspension, which begat the ultra-low rear bodywork, which begat the exhaust-blown diffuser that ate the world.

They mention in conclusion that 2014 will be all about efficiency, and not only is the Renault lump the most efficient of the lot, the RB9 has the most efficient aero. So 2014 might not be the end of an era of dominance but the beginning of a new one.

They don't mention that Newey has been working closely with Renault for more than three years on the design of the 1.6L V-6t. Which probably means Prodromou and Fallows also have spent the same three years on the design. If they didn't, that could only mean Newey didn't hold their skills essential anyway. Which would lead me to speculate Newey already got from them the most of what he needed and, at least in the short term, their input will be missed but very little. And it should be a least a week or two before they can turn McLaren around.

Bill Boddy · 19 November 2013

But will the efficient Renault engine be able to stay with the extra 1200 bhp that the Mercedes engine will produce?

Or will we simply not know anything about the engines before the first test day next year.

teabagyokel · 20 November 2013

Bill Boddy - I think it's all hearsay, rumours and/or bullshit until Melbourne, myself.

Il_leone · 20 November 2013

Aint the fuel limit 100 litres next season instead of 160 litres but Renaults can operate at 150 litres

Blog Zbod · 21 November 2013

Bill Boddy said:
But will the efficient Renault engine be able to stay with the extra 1200 bhp that the Mercedes engine will produce?...

Great googly moogly! Is it up to 1200 now? It probably will reach 1500 by Jerez. Or maybe 1650.

...Or will we simply not know anything about the engines before the first test day next year.

I think most of what is being bandied about now regarding engine outputs is bluff and bluster, and don't think we can begin to know the truth of it until Jerez. And even that, I don't think, will be an end of it because by its nature a forced induction engine is so adaptable. Teams might still continue to zig and zag in response to each other, perhaps even for first few races, and drivers will continue to adapt tactics and driving style, same as they have done with the disinte-Pirellis, until trial and error confirms the most efficacious use of that 100 kilos.

Il_leone said:
Aint the fuel limit 100 litres next season instead of 160 litres but Renaults can operate at 150 litres

The 2014 limit is 100 kilos, which come to about 135 litres because F1's petrol is a bit lighter than water. Volume (of a liquid) is variable with temperature. Mass is a far more constant property, and leaves fewer avenues for jiggery-pokery by the teams, so the 2014 TR uses fuel's mass rather than its volume.

I think the most fuel-efficient car on the 2013 grid is in the low 60s in litres per 100km. But in 2014, you'll have to get closer to 44L/100km if you intend reaching the finish. So look for more of what Jenson Button termed the era of "After you, Sir" racing, "Let him go, we're not racing him" part deux. Except the new limit will be imposed by the need to conserve fuel, not tyres.

But make no mistake, for 2014, peak horsepower is meaningless. Brake specific fuel consumption über alles.

Bill Boddy · 21 November 2013

Personally I would not be surprised if it becomes a lottery. That might be the best thing for the casual viewer.

Blog Zbod · 28 November 2013

This is spillover from comments on the Sebastian Vettel's (driver) thread, which was drifting off topic into something better suited for the Red Bull (team) thread.

This is why I think Red Bull will remain dominant in 2014. If you hated the 2013 season, I suspect you will positively despise 2014. Why? Let me count the reasons:

1. The other teams aren't growing any new brains

There have been very few staffing changes in the teams that will impact either way on Red Bull's dominance. Not nearly enough, in my estimation, to bridge the gulf to Red Bull.

2. F1 is ruled by downforce

A self-evident truth.

3. All downforce is not created equal

Wings create drag along with lift. This is an inviolable principle of aerodynamics. In racing, the big money is in finding drag-less (or less-drag) sources for downforce.

In an era where aero rules the F1 roost, any car that has a substantial advantage in creation of drag-less (or less-drag) downforce is virtually guaranteed of an unassailable speed advantage.

4. The RB9 produces substantially more less-drag downforce than any other car

F1 boffins reckon the RB9 produces ~140 points of downforce. The rest of the field ranges from ~80-90 points. And the Renaults produce the least bhp of any engine in the field.

That you can combine those two factors -- less bhp and more downforce -- and still take pole at any circuit is proof that their ratio of total drag to total downforce is superior to any other team's cars. Qualies are key because the race start weight advantage inherent in the Renault's lower fuel consumption is isolated from the equation. And Vettel took nine poles out of 19 races in 2013. He started 2° a further six times and worse than 3° just once. So the issue of the superiority of the RB9's drag/downforce ratio is long since settled.

5. Red Bull's aerodynamicist(s) are very much smarter than all the other team's

Any twit can create downforce by means of a wing. It takes true talent to create downforce that doesn't also bring a wing's worth of induced drag along for the ride. Which their cars' performance clearly demonstrates Red Bull are the masters of.

The gap between Red Bull and the best of the rest easily is the equivalent of several seasons worth of R&D. The significance of that difference goes less to any material advantage to be carried over into next season than to the magnitude of the superiority of the intellects that created it. They could not have created this degree of superiority without they also have the expertise to perpetuate it.

Red Bull's aerodynamic chops aren't just a little bit better than the rest, they're on a completely different planet.

6. Red Bull Racing have had remarkable internal stability

They haven't had to change the names painted on the VIP spaces in the car park at Milton Keynes in more than five years.

7. Red Bull have a culture of winning

It might sound trite, but winning is contagious, self-sustaining. And so is losing. Which is of little consequence to Red Bull, as their habit is the winning. They know their success isn't down to blind luck, because they have done it repeatedly. And the longer their dominance lasts, the less certain the other teams can be whether they so much as are on the proper course.

8. There has been little histrionics at Red Bull

Were it not for Chris Horner entertaining Mark Webber's delusions of grandeur, there would have been none at all. As calm as a mill pond. Stand in a circle, hold hands and sing Kum Ba Ya.

9. The loss of Newey's #1 & #2 minions to McLaren won't be felt for some time

If ever. If Prodromu and Fallows had mattered to Newey, he would have urged Mateschitz to keep them, and I think Dietrich would have complied. He is not averse stuffing wads of bank notes into a wound to staunch the bleeding. Not to mention they remain under contract to Red Bull until the end of the year. Which doubtless means Newey at this moment is cracking the whip on them as mercilessly as if they were two rented mules. So you can bet he will extract the full measure of whatever the RB10 needs from them before he finally shows them the door.

10. Newey thrives on change

As much as he tends to grind out an advantage by tweaking and refining an existing design, his record of success shows he gains even more advantage when the rules change substantially. As they do for 2014.

11. Red Bull no longer are playing according Hoyle

RBR have shown a considerable increase in use of "grey area" developments since the 2009 season. I think the events of that season were pivotal to their philosophy, in their willingness to 'stretch' the rules in pursuit of the WCC. Since 2009, Horner has publicly remarked that the rules have no spirit, only letters. We can't know everything that goes on behind closed doors at Milton Keynes, but before 2009, I never sensed they had become so ruthless in their pursuit of anything and everything that was possible. Now I do. For that matter, the same tide might have swept over the whole of F1 (Lotus certainly show the same stripes), but no other team appears to have turned it so much to their advantage as have Red Bull.

Thanks to Ross Brawn's double diffuser, out goes Edmond Hoyle, and in comes Junior Johnson. They no longer care what the rules permit, they only care what the rules don't forbid.

12. Vettel's performance isn't likely to collapse

He seems unaffected by his success, completely unimpressed with his own historical significance. He appears as centered and grounded and focused as ever. And he just. keeps. getting. better. I expect he will defend his title more deftly over the 2014 season than any of the previous three.

13. 2014 Pirellis have RED BULL written all over them

Keen to avoid complaints of their tyres being too delicate, Pirelli have reacted to reports of a dramatic increase in torque in the 2014 formula engines by building quite a conservative tyre. Which should have the same relative effect as the change made after the 2013 summer holiday, which Paul "Baghdad Bob" Hembery prophetically remarked was as good as handing Vettel another title.

14. It isn't yet their time

As I have said before, the most difficult adversity to survive is success. And Red Bull are sitting squarely atop a powder keg full of success. When they ultimately fall from grace, it most likely will be because one of their own strikes the impolitic match which blows them all asunder. Which can happen at any time, in the twinkling of an eye. Maybe tomorrow.

But I'm betting not.

(If you think this was too long, you should have seen the other versions!)

Olivier · 28 November 2013

It's not over yet but since F1 is a cyclical sport, their dominance will come to an end, sooner rather than later. It happened to Ferrari and before that to Williams and McLaren. However it seems to me that in this time and age the pendulum is swinging slower than ever before so indeed RBR age will still last a couple of years

sushifiesta · 28 November 2013

I agree that Red Bull will more than likely maintain an aerodynamic advantage in to 2014 but that will do them no good if the new Renault engine blows up half the time or is ridiculously underpowered. Red Bull also have a history of frequent KERS problems and ERS is playing a bigger role next season so there's a frailty there as well. There's some hope for a competitive season at least...

Kewee · 28 November 2013

Blog Zbod said:
<Massive quote of the entire post removed as per the forum rules>

Your reasoning is interesting but has many flaws and is plain wrong in some areas. The big players certainly have grown more brains. Ferrari have brought in much new blood, not to mention Rory Bourne has been working on the 2014 car for over a year now. McLaren have employed Red Bulls chief of aerodynamics though his contribution may not be felt until 2015. Red Bull loose its blown diffuser advantage with next seasons change in regulations hence much of their, maybe all of their downforce advantage. I haven't even mentioned what is considered fact, engines will come to the fore next season which could and probably will change the playing field dramatically. Watch for Honda's return with McLaren in 2015. Although aerodynamics will always be important, the holy grail for F1 could well become the powerplants. We should have much to enjoy. Red Bull will still be at the sharp end of the grid but I wouldn't put money on them dominating.

Incubus · 28 November 2013

While issues regarding actual engine power are impossible to be precise upon, what has been more readily apparent is that the Renault has indeed seemed to be more fuel-efficient than the others for some time.
It was verifiable in 2009, when they published post-qualifying weights. F1 analysts on various media would then publish charts of each driver's predicted first pit-stop laps once the weights were published.
I remember at the time after almost every race I would notice that Renault-powered drivers almost invariably went a couple of laps - or more - further into their first stint than they had been predicted to.
Not completele proof in itself that Renault engines used up less fuel - but a pretty good indication.

teabagyokel · 28 November 2013

One thing utterly wrong Blog Zbod. We have freedom of labour. I'd rather be top dog at McLaren than a man whose successes will be ignored in favour of another, I'd want to prove myself regardless of money.

And I think McLaren still pay pretty well.

rufus_mcdufus · 29 November 2013

Top dog in a failing team - really?

Blog Zbod · 29 November 2013

Kewee said:
...Ferrari have brought in much new blood, not to mention Rory Bourne has been working on the 2014 car for over a year now. McLaren have employed Red Bulls chief of aerodynamics though his contribution may not be felt until 2015....

Rory also was instrumental in the design of the F138, and we know how well that worked out for them. Which raises the possibility he has lost a bit of his mojo. I am aware he has been given next to full-on autonomy on the 2014 design, but it remains to be seen how genially he plays with chief designer Nicholas Tombazis and newly-minted director of chassis James Allison. Too many chefs spoil the broth.

Ferrari have no coherent plan and the new design team (underscore team) is unproved. The Scuderia are playing at musical chairs, throwing ideas against the wall, praying that something sticks. The trend lines over the most recent five seasons decidedly favour Red Bull.

Regarding Prodromu and Fallows moving to McLaren, I already stipulated I was speaking to 2014 results.

So I stand by my original statement. The other teams aren't growing any new brains.

Kewee said:
...Red Bull loose its blown diffuser advantage with next seasons change in regulations hence much of their, maybe all of their downforce advantage....

Let's examine that possibility. What if all of Red Bull's downforce advantage were produced by the diffuser?

Conventional wisdom is that 2013's rear diffusers accounted for ~40% of total downforce. Among the "best of the rest" teams, that would leave 54 points of downforce attributable to sources apart the diffuser.

Assuming, as you conjecture, that Red Bull have no downforce advantage apart the rear diffuser, we subtract that 54 points from RBR's 140 points total (=86). Next we divide that by the 40% of downforce points of the other teams (=36). If your speculation were correct, that would mean Red Bull's 2013 rear diffuser was producing 239% as much downforce as the second best team. And that their diffuser-only downforce was greater than the total downforce made by most if not all of the lesser teams.

Not a very likely scenario, wouldn't you agree?

Which can only mean the entire rest of the car also is producing one hell of a lot more less-drag downforce than any of the competition. And that story neither begins nor ends with the rear diffuser.

The 2013 difference in total downforce between RBR and the best of the rest is 5x as great as that team's advantage over Marussia. 5x!!! Red Bull's aerodynamicist(s) are very much smarter than all the other team's.

sushifiesta said:
I agree that Red Bull will more than likely maintain an aerodynamic advantage in to 2014 but that will do them no good if the new Renault engine blows up half the time or is ridiculously underpowered. Red Bull also have a history of frequent KERS problems and ERS is playing a bigger role next season so there's a frailty there as well. There's some hope for a competitive season at least...

Its reliability in service with their other customer teams (or rather its lack of un-reliability) shows that the problem was not with the Renault's KERS itself, as supplied, but with the jiggery-pokery RBR were insistent on applying to it. But the 2014 TR forbid the teams fiddling with the power unit in any way whatsoever, except the exhaust downstream from the headers (and the contract with the supplier forbids modifying even that bit). RBR even tried to get Renault to let Infinity tweak special power units specifically for them, but the FIA forbade it. The 2014 power units will be WYSIWYG, all identical from each supplier, so RBR's KERS reliability problems should be a thing of the past.

ZakspeedYakspeed · 30 November 2013

Blog Zbod ... excellent little synopsis you put together ... even if it means tears into beers over summer for fans were it to all come true next season ...

Bill Boddy · 19 December 2013

Just what is going on at Red Bull? Why are top designers leaving? Could it be due in any part to Newey sitting on the pit wall at most races whilst the others feel that he is taking too much of the credit for what they are doing?

Mephistopheles · 19 December 2013

I think it is more likely to do with his strict manner of operating and them not being allowed to have any input or say in the car, it is either his way or no way and they probably feel they need to go somewhere where they will be allowed to breath and use their own creativity....

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