MASSA?

Sarinaide

Banned
I've said it before on other threads; I really can't see Kubica competing in F1 again. The 'confidence' shown by his manager just smacks to me of blustering.

And I believe that Ferrrari will replace Massa early. He may be a good number two driver, but he's currently too far back to be of much help in the Constructors' championship, which is where the teams get their money.

I think Perez is the most likely candidate, but I'd also like to see Hulkenberg in the frame.

Hulkenburg must be loving the test driver/reserve driver seat...... Perez is starting to tickle my fancy, so is Maldonado....maybe Adrian Sutil
 

F1Yorkshire

Avatar for sale to the highest bidder
Contributor
Any driver going to Ferrari while Alonso is there will be a firm number 2. It will be waste of talent if Kubica or Perez who has potential end up been Alonso's understudy until 2016. Ferrari is Massa's best chance for points but the team and car is been built round a single driver.

In a few years time Massa will be the new Barricello.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
Any driver going to Ferrari while Alonso is there will be a firm number 2. It will be waste of talent if Kubica or Perez who has potential end up been Alonso's understudy until 2016. Ferrari is Massa's best chance for points but the team and car is been built round a single driver.

In a few years time Massa will be the new Barricello.

Barrichello had/s talent, Massa can't put a good car in the points
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Barrichello had/s talent, Massa can't put a good car in the points

Australian GP - Massa 7th place - 6 points - 3 places behind Alonso
Malaysian GP - Massa 5th place - 10 points - 1 place in front of Alonso
Chinese GP - Massa 6th place - 8 points - 1 place in front of Alonso
Turkish GP - Massa 11th place - 0 points - 7 places behind Alonso
Spanish GP - Massa - DNF - running in points until Gearbox failure
Monoco GP - Massa - DNF - running in points until collison with Hamilton.

so you're statement only applys to one of the GP this year and as in that one he was running in the points and only slipped back because of 2 botched pitstops you should cut Massa some slack.

He's off form but saying he has no talent is ridiculous.
 

Chad Stewarthill

Champion Elect
Contributor
Any driver going to Ferrari while Alonso is there will be a firm number 2. It will be waste of talent if Kubica or Perez who has potential end up been Alonso's understudy until 2016. Ferrari is Massa's best chance for points but the team and car is been built round a single driver.

In a few years time Massa will be the new Barricello.

But what if a driver like Perez were, after a year or two to acclimatise, to begin to challenge Alonso's performances on the track? If he and one or two others have the talent that many people seem to think they have, is that scenario so impossible to imagine? After all, one such young driver has already shown that it's possible.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
Australian GP - Massa 7th place - 6 points - 3 places behind Alonso
Malaysian GP - Massa 5th place - 10 points - 1 place in front of Alonso
Chinese GP - Massa 6th place - 8 points - 1 place in front of Alonso
Turkish GP - Massa 11th place - 0 points - 7 places behind Alonso
Spanish GP - Massa - DNF - running in points until Gearbox failure
Monoco GP - Massa - DNF - running in points until collison with Hamilton.

so you're statement only applys to one of the GP this year and as in that one he was running in the points and only slipped back because of 2 botched pitstops you should cut Massa some slack.

He's off form but saying he has no talent is ridiculous.

In Malaysia Alonso would have finished 3rd but for the fender bender with Hamilton so that should largely be regarded as fortune for Massa.

2 DNF's and 1 out of points finish.

I will cut him slack when he puts his moping and whining away and actually drives for Ferrari for a change.....If he beats Alonso absolutely fantastic.
 

The Enforcer

Wheel-to-wheel Maestro
Contributor
Massa needed to stamp his authority the minute Alonso joined the team, but as we all know the accident in Hungary took more out of him than has been let on and he lost all his momentum.

Sadly his ship has already sailed and unless he can quickly regain form and start driving for himself then he will slip into obscurity within a couple of seasons.

It's a real shame as after Brazil 08, he gained a huge amount of respect and has always put in stunning drives. The problem is these are few and far between, occur at particular venues and are on the decrease.

It just goes to show how narrow a window of opportunity some F1 drivers have, you can be a contender one season and the next a different team becomes dominant force, events conspire against you and your chance has gone.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
Massa needed to stamp his authority the minute Alonso joined the team, but as we all know the accident in Hungary took more out of him than has been let on and he lost all his momentum.

Sadly his ship has already sailed and unless he can quickly regain form and start driving for himself then he will slip into obscurity within a couple of seasons.

It's a real shame as after Brazil 08, he gained a huge amount of respect and has always put in stunning drives. The problem is these are few and far between, occur at particular venues and are on the decrease.

It just goes to show how narrow a window of opportunity some F1 drivers have, you can be a contender one season and the next a different team becomes dominant force, events conspire against you and your chance has gone.

I always say the converse Alonso came from a sinking Renault ship, Massa was the established driver and has hopelessly been out driven by Alonso (in general).......So perhaps he needs to stop blaming this and that and actually get some performances in......that said I think he was desperate for points in Monaco and probably would have gotten some good points too.
 

Bushi

Race Winner
But what if a driver like Perez were, after a year or two to acclimatise, to begin to challenge Alonso's performances on the track? If he and one or two others have the talent that many people seem to think they have, is that scenario so impossible to imagine? After all, one such young driver has already shown that it's possible.

I think it is. Back then it was a different team, with a different mentality.
Ferrari will only listen to one driver and in this case that is Alonso, he's the one that gets the best material and he's the one they build the car around. Maybe if Perez has the same driving style, than maybe.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
I think it is. Back then it was a different team, with a different mentality.
Ferrari will only listen to one driver and in this case that is Alonso, he's the one that gets the best material and he's the one they build the car around. Maybe if Perez has the same driving style, than maybe.

I am pretty sure Alonso and Massa have the same car? and each driver has his own technical side and machanics to make the car to there wants and needs,.........or we just going to say that Seb has a differant car to Mark, Lewis to Button....technically yes but the inovations are the same.
 

The Enforcer

Wheel-to-wheel Maestro
Contributor
Massa knew all about Alonso before he joined, he was a double world champion, widely considered to be the best on the grid and with a reputation for demanding preferential treatment.

Massa may well have been an established driver, but he hadn't raced since Hungary and the moment Alonso signed the writing was on the wall. He should have taken the Hamilton route and battled for equal treatment and made sure everyone knew he wasn't a push over or a rear gunner and would be taking the fight to Alonso.

Instead he rolled over and hasn't looked the same since. It's like the wind has been taken out of his sails and unless he can find a big bag of form quickly he will never stand a chance again. I don't see him at the Scuderia beyond 2012 and this is his only opportunity to bag a strong seat for when he leaves.
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
I will cut him slack when he puts his moping and whining away and actually drives for Ferrari for a change.....If he beats Alonso absolutely fantastic.

for some reason I have the sneaky feeling you wouldn't find that fantastic :p

Take away the 2 DNF's and Massa has been doing an alright job this season compared to the other number 2's in the team. Webber hasn't beaten Seb all season and Jenson like Fellipe has beaten his team leader twice.

As for his moaning and whining - can't say I've heard it - and as this is a driver who took the bullet for his team regarding the team orders issue last year(it was all my decision honest!) you can hardly accuse him of not pulling his weight for Ferrari.

I get the feeling we're never going to agree on this though so I'll bite my tounge
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
He should have taken the Hamilton route and battled for equal treatment and made sure everyone knew he wasn't a push over or a rear gunner and would be taking the fight to Alonso.

I think the problem was that he was just unable to compete. Remember, he was ahead of Alonso in Australia last year and was not asked to move out of the way. He had his chance, and he didn't have the required talent or mentality to take it.

The reason Alonso has only had one (OK, two) team-mate as fast as him is only partly because he had preferential treatment. He's just blown all his team-mates bar Hamilton (OK, and Trulli) into the weeds, and I don't think its car advantage doing it.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
for some reason I have the sneaky feeling you wouldn't find that fantastic :p

Take away the 2 DNF's and Massa has been doing an alright job this season compared to the other number 2's in the team. Webber hasn't beaten Seb all season and Jenson like Fellipe has beaten his team leader twice.

As for his moaning and whining - can't say I've heard it - and as this is a driver who took the bullet for his team regarding the team orders issue last year(it was all my decision honest!) you can hardly accuse him of not pulling his weight for Ferrari.

I get the feeling we're never going to agree on this though so I'll bite my tounge

Massa has like Mark Webber played the inequality card and moaned about the inadequate respect, which is indicative of broken men, I look at the 2008 - 2009 Massa and over the 2010 to current Massa and sit and ask myself "who is this guy".

As for Massa beating Alonso, if he does, and Alonso is doing what he is doing it will mean Ferrari will be doing quite well so yeah, if Massa beats Alonso I am thrilled being a Ferrari fan.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
I think the problem was that he was just unable to compete. Remember, he was ahead of Alonso in Australia last year and was not asked to move out of the way. He had his chance, and he didn't have the required talent or mentality to take it.

The reason Alonso has only had one (OK, two) team-mate as fast as him is only partly because he had preferential treatment. He's just blown all his team-mates bar Hamilton (OK, and Trulli) into the weeds, and I don't think its car advantage doing it.

Yeah, I don't know he won the Title when Trulli and Frisichella where his team mates, and well only on the marginal basis of a few points, and the entire McLaren race team against him, finished 3rd in the championship. So I would hardly say anyone has blown him away.
 

Bushi

Race Winner
I am pretty sure Alonso and Massa have the same car? and each driver has his own technical side and machanics to make the car to there wants and needs,.........or we just going to say that Seb has a differant car to Mark, Lewis to Button....technically yes but the inovations are the same.

Yeah, they have the same car, but if Ferrari has two engines with like 850 and 845, the one with 850 will go to Alonso. And i also think Ferrari made the car more suitable with Alonso's driving style rather than Massa. We saw the same thing with Raikkonen, he didn't say much so Ferrari focused more on Massa. After the incident in Hungary they focused more on Raikkonen, in which he ended the last part of the season as the top scorer.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
Yeah, they have the same car, but if Ferrari has two engines with like 850 and 845, the one with 850 will go to Alonso. And i also think Ferrari made the car more suitable with Alonso's driving style rather than Massa. We saw the same thing with Raikkonen, he didn't say much so Ferrari focused more on Massa. After the incident in Hungary they focused more on Raikkonen, in which he ended the last part of the season as the top scorer.

They even out the new lot during the season, If Alonso runs a new wing design, Massa will run a new Engine or ancillory downforce device, each driver gets ample chance.

I also say, it is a business, they spent the money to make Alonso the face of the Ferrari F1 franchise, if you do so and you pay to expect then Ferrari are well at liberty to do that, and this has been going on in Racing since the cavemen rolled rocks. I just think it turns out to be a "Alonso wrecked this and that persons career", it is the same cult that claimed "schumacher wrecked careers" before that "Senna wrecked careers".
 
This idea that Massa should have stamped his authority at Ferrari is a moot idea because his buddy/mentor wasn't there to help him do that...

...Schumacher went to Mercedes at the same time as Alonso was going for his seat fittings.

Massa had Schumacher in his corner...and Schumacher never liked Raikkonen...and Raikkonen himself wasn't interested in politics and was relatively quiet, i.e. the opposite of Alonso.

Schumacher leaving Ferrari to drive again for Mercedes left Massa with less political clout on his side of the garage.

Santander money also helped Alonso.

The Political dye was cast in their second race:

Massa held up Alonso in Australia (Alonso caught up after he was pointing backwards at Turn 1 following his poor wheel-spin start on the wet white line on the Melbourne starting grid)...and after the race Alonso and his manager had a high level meeting with Ferrari where he/his manager said that Ferrari had compromised the race in order to not hurt Massa's feelings.

So...the dye was cast then!

Alonso rudely mugging Massa in the China pit lane then sent a further signal to all concerned.

Alonso has proven faster and the more consistent...and that's the long and short of it
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Yeah, I don't know he won the Title when Trulli and Frisichella where his team mates, and well only on the marginal basis of a few points, and the entire McLaren race team against him, finished 3rd in the championship. So I would hardly say anyone has blown him away.

Three points:
  • I was not saying anyone has blown Alonso away, Hamilton got equal points to him in 2010, Trulli one more in 2004 up to Trulli's sacking at Monza.
  • He didn't win the title with Trulli as a team-mate
  • If the entire McLaren race team were against him, that was no-ones fault but his. Alonso caused a lot of tension in that team because he demanded superiority and did not get it.
    The inability to be beaten and the need to win is what makes Alonso, in general, a Champion, but is what aided Alonso's falling out with McLaren in 2007.
The idea that Massa should have stamped his authority at Ferrari is ridiculous because Alonso was faster than him.
 

Sarinaide

Banned
Three points:
  • I was not saying anyone has blown Alonso away, Hamilton got equal points to him in 2010, Trulli one more in 2004 up to Trulli's sacking at Monza.
  • He didn't win the title with Trulli as a team-mate
  • If the entire McLaren race team were against him, that was no-ones fault but his. Alonso caused a lot of tension in that team because he demanded superiority and did not get it.
    The inability to be beaten and the need to win is what makes Alonso, in general, a Champion, but is what aided Alonso's falling out with McLaren in 2007.
The idea that Massa should have stamped his authority at Ferrari is ridiculous because Alonso was faster than him.

I concur with all that, I have said in the past in particular Alonso had said things that perhaps was over the counter, but I also say that it cannot be a finger pointing reason as to why Massa a competent driver is looking a shell of the man of 2008 and indeed his Sauber days.

I also stand by my point that Ferrari or whomever hire a driver with a big profile for a specific reason, if the team wants him to be the be all and end all well then so be it.
 
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