Mark Webber

I'm a little puzzled as to why Webber doesn't have a page in the teams and drivers section, as Webber is a pivotal figure in the story upfront. There are questions that need to be asked. Why can Vettel win, and Webber struggle to get on the podium fighting Ferraris and McLarens? Why is the man that was noted as a good qualifier unable to get near Vettel? Did the leg break in late 2008 do him serious performance damage? and What should Webber do in the near future?

Mark Webber. Over to you...
 
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One thing nobody is taking into account here is the amount technical faults Webber has suffered since Red Bull have been using the KERS system. I am not trying to create excuses for him here it is just a fact and in some cases it has also been the reason for his bad starts.

teabagyokel said:
The Pits - I didn't realise they were that poor.

I suspect I know how good Vettel is, I'm not impressed with Coulthard in 2007/08, Klien and Yoong and Pizzonia are shit. So essentially the question we're asking to try to calibrate Webber is: how good is Nick Heidfeld?
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Fairly good, McLaren nearly signed him. Although they picked Raikkonen who was beaten by Heidfeld in 2001. Some see Kubica as one of the most talented drivers in F1 and he managed to beat him twice, aswell.
 
Some questions I would like to have answered.

If Webber isn't a top driver, what class of driver is he then?
If Webber isn't a top class driver, how did he manage to out-qualify his team-mate Sebastian Vettel on numerous occasions?
If Webber isn't a top driver, how did he achieve multiple wins at Monaco and several other wins against his top class and four times world champion team-mate Sebastian Vettel?
 
teabagyokel said:
A wonderful ambassador for F1? Certainly. A great spokesman for sport in general? Yes. A top bloke? I couldn't argue.

I don't think there is any evidence suggesting he's a top Grand Prix driver.
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Three Championship 3rd's are enough for me, especially when he was only beaten by Vettel and Alonso in two of them. No one would suggest he's absolutely top draw but he has been one of the sports leading drivers. Only great drivers win at Monaco more than once, unless the weather plays a part. Not winning the title is no reason to bag a man who deserves nothing but respect on and off the track. I'm not suggesting your bagging him teabagyokel but many on the site do.
 
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I think Webber's career is distinctly average if I'm honest. Very much one of those drivers who spent his career showing his skills on a Saturday. He'd qualify high, get off the line slow and gradually slip down the field. Thats the story of the majority of his races since his Jaguar days.

As for where I'd rank him as a driver I'd say somewhere alongside Jarno Trulli and Ralph Schumacher. He'd have the occasional day he was unbeatable but they were few and far between and when it came to mixing it with the big boys properly he just wasn't up to it.

As for being a 'top bloke' and a 'great ambassador' for F1 I guess that depends on where you stand. For a driver who would complain about other drivers moaning he seem to spend a lot of time moaning himself. For a driver who said he didn't get involved in F1 politics he spent a lot of time playing F1 politics. For a driver who had a lot of collisions with other drivers he spent a lot of time calling other drivers 'dangerous' to the press.

I don't know the guy so I can't common personally but he has called everyone from Hamilton through Vettel to Grosjean 'idiots' and 'dangerous' and sometimes I wonder if when someone is described as 'outspoken' its actually code for 'bit of a nob'

Oh and he's one of Flavs and media wise you can tell.
 
RasputinLives ….. I'll always defend Webber as a driver and a person. You say he wasn't up to mixing it with the big boys. There are only ever three or four drivers at any one time you could refer to as big boys. In a full field of twenty four drivers that means twenty of them can't mix it with the big boys. What an absurd way to view twenty of the finest drivers in the world. Sure two or three may not deserve to be there but Webber certainly isn't one of them. He's consistently been in the top six and deserves credit, not that he would give a rats ass about the small opinions of people on any website. He's far too much of a decent man with heart to care about silly opinions. I may be being harsh but I won't apologize, I'm defending someone who I like and who deserves to be defended. To those who feel he was too far from Vettel to be worthy, Vettel was at the beginning of his F1 career, Webber at the end of his. Vettel was able to adapt to the exhaust blown diffuser and get the best from it, Webber was old school with a driving style that was never able to adapt to the changing technology. He was still a fine driver capable of beating all but the very best.
 
Kewee I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down.

I never said he didn't deserve to be in F1. I compared him to Jarno Trulli and Ralf Schumacher. Two guys who were very fine drivers on their day just like Webber but also drivers who were world champion material and who I wouldn't put in the 'world class' bracket.

Of course this is all subjectionable. I'm not suggesting for a moment compared to the average Joe, Webber is not an amazing driver. Of course he is! He's in F1. However if compared to all the drivers I've watched in F1 I was to rank him then he would be upper middle at best and so I stand by my not able to mix it with the big boys comment.

As for him not caring about peoples opinions on little websites. Good for him.

As for being kind hearted and decent, how would you know anymore than I?
I see a very media savy driver trained by Flav who is quick to insult other drivers and quick to act offended when others say things about him. I don't like that. I said nothing about him as a person. I do not know the man so can't form any opinion (neither can you by the way).

Thats my opionion and I won't apologise for that. If you want to take it as an attack on the man you can but it does seem a bit silly.
 
Pretty much.

I bet he is a nice bloke really. Just didn't like the way he talked about other drivers in the media sometimes.

But having said that I have that issue with other drivers too so its nothing personel aimed at Webber.
 
Plutus said:
Some questions I would like to have answered.

If Webber isn't a top driver, what class of driver is he then?
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Class A: Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen
Class B: Grosjean, Button, Hulkenburg
Class C: Webber, Massa, Di Resta

Plutus said:
If Webber isn't a top class driver, how did he manage to out-qualify his team-mate Sebastian Vettel on numerous occasions?
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Two things about this, 1: points are handed out on Sundays, and 2: there are precious few drivers who manage to never be outqualified by a team-mate, especially if said team-mate is a quali specialist.

Plutus said:
If Webber isn't a top driver, how did he achieve multiple wins at Monaco and several other wins against his top class and four times world champion team-mate Sebastian Vettel?
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Dry wins at Monaco is not an indicator of a driver's quality. If they were Coulthard = Trintignant > Trulli = Patrese > Clark = Piquet.
I would emphatically put Coulthard in Class C without too much argument.

His nine wins were:
  1. Nurburgring 2009
  2. Brazil 2009 - VET poor qualifying strategy
  3. Spain 2010 - VET cracked chassis
  4. Monaco 2010 - VET cracked chassis
  5. Britain 2010 - VET first lap puncture
  6. Hungary 2010 - VET drive through penalty for trying to get WEB into second
  7. Brazil 2011 - VET "gearbox issue"
  8. Monaco 2012 - VET poor strategy
  9. Britain 2012
If we actually consider Vettel's misfortune as well, it is evident that he scarcely beat Vettel in a fair fight, with Hungaroring 2010 being the worst example.

Since there are more than 6 racetracks on the calendar (Barcelona, Monaco, Nurburgring, Silverstone, Interlagos, Istanbul), he can hardly be described as a top driver.
 
RasputinLives ….. Just to follow up on a couple of points. In the posting I was replying to you were far harsher in your judgement of Webber than you were in your follow-up. I wouldn't have needed to calm down had I read your second posting first. :) I realize you didn't say he didn't deserve to be in F1, it was me saying maybe a couple of drivers don't. You also stated just being in F1 makes him an amazing driver. With that statement we are now much closer in our opinions. It is exactly that thought that's in my mind when I form an opinion of any driver that has made it through to F1 which is probably why I get a bit wound-up when people start bagging any of these twenty four drivers, They're all light years ahead of us in there skill level. I'm not sure why we disagreed to be honest. If you read my posting again you'll realize I placed him just below the 'big boys' which makes him the best of the rest, which is why I finished my posting by saying he's capable of beating all but the very best. You ranked him in your second posting as being upper-middle, I would suggest that's not far from where I placed him. As far as my comments on Webber as a person, I am in a position to make them which is why I could never say too much when he was racing and I don't intend saying anymore now. :friends:
 
teabagyokel …. To constantly compare Webber to Vettel is incredibly unfair. I know the norm is to compare a driver to his teammate to reach an accurate conclusion but that's bloody tough in Webbers case. Your comparing a driver in the closing years of his F1 career with a driver beginning to peak in the early years of his career. The comparison is even tougher when you consider Vettel may well be, or become, the best we've ever seen. Webber began his teaming with Vettel recovering from a broken leg which affected his season, by the time he had recovered the following year he was entering the last years of his F1 career, certainly well past the age most drivers peak at. He's hell of a lot better driver than many give him credit for.
 
An upper middle Aussie Kewee? I presume your not talking about class here as I though Kiwi's were the posh Aussie's ;) (with due credit to Andrew Flintoff on a recent Fighting Talk)
 
:thinking:Kewee ... there is no such thing a posh Aussie ... we are all descendants of crims ...

Posh titles belong to Spice Girls ... or is that an oxymoron ?!
 
Kewee - I was responding to a comparison with Vettel. I also used his reasonably even fights with Coulthard (2007) and the underrated Heidfeld to inform my choice - Webber clearly should have been closer to Vettel in the last year and a half, but he did pass 35 so I'll look more at his wasted peak with Williams.
 

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