Head To Head Jenson Button vs Lewis Hamilton

[ExtremeNinja]

Mephistopheles

I touched on this the other day and I think that, certainly at the beginning of the year, Jenson was every bit as good as Lewis. This goes back to my experience + talent = quality equation.

Jenson will admit that Lewis has more talent but he also knows that he can often match him through experience. The things is, you can gain experience but you can't gain talent.

Their quality is at a similar level at the moment but unless Lewis peaks, and he is showing no signs of doing that, then he will pull further away from Jenson, in terms of quality, as he gains experience.

 

[Bill Boddy]

What you are saying ExtremeNinja is hardly evidence. Just what events have brought in the idea that Button has forced Hamilton out of the McLaren team?

 

[The Artist.....]

ExtremeNinja

That "Experience+talent" is rather simplistic, and actually disingenuous. Quality is made up of far more, including hard work, perserverence, even personality and ability to work with a team will come into it.

I would even suggest that "underlying ability" declines with age - as often raw talents will come in all guns blazing, but then when they've peaked, they have actually lost the edge on their ability - I think this certainly holds true for the greats of the modern era - Senna and Schumacher certainly showed this.....

 

[ExtremeNinja]

The Artist..... It is supposed to be simplistic. Hard-work, perseverance, personality and personality and all of the other things you have mentioned can all be bundled into my simplistic equation. It is not disingenuous in any way whatsoever. Sure, you could write a book on the nuances of each individual driver and analyse each to the nth degree, but that is not what I am attempting to do.

Agree with your second paragraph, but both the drivers under discussion are young enough for that not to be a factor. I hope so, at least, because I'm the same age as Jenson.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Bill Boddy

I never stated that I was providing evidence, nor did I attempt to provide any analysis, nor do I intend to. I simply stated that over the last three years I have observed Hamilton being sidelined by Button and, in agreement with Brogan, feel that this is something that Jenson has been quite calculated about.

That's as much as I want to say on the matter. You have my opinion but I will hold onto my reasoning, if it's all the same. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.

 

[The Artist.....]

Agree with your second paragraph, but both the drivers under discussion are young enough for that not to be a factor. I hope so, at least, because I'm the same age as Jenson.

ExtremeNinja

I too am the same age as JB, but I would argue that the raw talent starts to decline very early - Schumacher seemed to temper his raw speed once he was at Ferrari - and added other aspects to his game... Similarly, Senna when he was at McLaren never seemed to be quite as far ahead as raw talent would have originally suggested... - I suspect that both JB and LH have a lower innate speed than when they were 1 or 2 years into their F1 careers, but I suppose I would agree that experience has helped them both as well...

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I would argue that it is completely down to the individual in question and that some drivers peak early and that some people peak late. I would also argue that when a driver peaks, it is either because they begin to naturally deteriorate, as all humans eventually do, or that their experience has taken them to full realisation of their talent.

Neither Jenson nor Lewis are displaying any signs of age catching up with them at all in terms of their physiological ability. Both drivers will likely continue to improve, but it is my opinion that Lewis has a lot more scope to improve than Jenson does which, to my mind, would suggest that he has a higher potential than Jenson. Whether or not either driver reach their full potential would be a crystal ball exercise.

In a nutshell, what I am saying is that I think that they are quite evenly matched through a balance of different factors at the moment but that I think it is likely that Lewis, as he matures and gains experience, will ultimately turn out a better driver. I think that this has already become evident to be the case as this year has unfolded.

 

[racecub]

Ok my views on this. I doubt they'll be popular but they're my views, just that.
Has Button contributed to Hamilton leaving McLaren? Yes
Is it because Hamilton has been blown away by the unexpected driving ability Button has shown? No

Button is a mid-grid driver who, when everything is perfect can mix it with the best.
Hamilton is a driver who can get in the mix in a car that is slower than the competition, and can get results with such a car.
I think both drivers know this, so how has Button contributed to Hamilton leaving?
Button is the master of turning situations to his advantage. He saw situations at McLaren that he could turn to his advantage and set about doing so. He's a great pr person and manages to perpetuate myths......
He's the friendly happy chappy-( with a core of steal and a knife in his hand)
He's great with his tyres- (actually Lewis was the driver getting heat in his tyres for quali, managing a one stop in Spain and controlling races from the front by managing tyres)
He's the consistent thinking driver- ( Lewis has been much more consistent and has caused no accidents this year, Button's caused two)
He can set the car up- ( not for a run of seven races he couldn't, he led the team up the garden path and had to resort to Lewis' set up)
But still the myths remain. Still I hear people saying Lewis should be more consistent like Button.
To go back to button and the McLaren situation. I think he Ruthlessly set about undermining Hamilton from day one.
Well good for him I near people say. Yes. He used his skill set very well and why not? Can't blame him for that. If you admire those skills, then Button's your man! And Hamilton cannot be blameless, he stood by and let it happen. Indeed he did. Hamilton is not equipped to play these games and neither is he interested. And so he became more and more isolated at McLaren. Undervalued and not respected. Button must have been delighted. Whitmarsh should have seen what was happening, a better manager would have done, and taken steps to address the situation. I think Whitmarsh does realise now, judging by his gushing comments about how much Lewis is loved at Mclaren(this was after the bowling incident). Maybe he knew all along and was happy to let the situation continue, but I don't think that's the case. I think he tookLewis for granted and never expected him to leave. Lewis has done something about the situation now, he's walked.

Talking about Lewis, Brawn says - Hamilton wants to be an intrinsic part of the team at Mercedes. He wants to contribute much more than driving the car, to be an integrated team member and contribute in a way he's not been asked to contribute at McLaren.
II'll post the link to that interview if I can find it.

http://m.youtube.com/?reload=3&rdm=mcc2pj5d5#/watch?feature=related&v=LuLIWUdmUE0

 

[Jen]

"Hamilton is not equipped to play these games and neither is he interested".

Try looking at 2007 and then maybe appraise the personality!

 

[racecub]

Yep looked at 2007. He asked for equality after Monaco ( all he's ever requested actually). And got drawn into a fight with Dennis and the FIA which probably cost him the championship. Reappraised, same conclusion.

 

[Vortex]

Its always someone else’s fault isn’t it!

 

[FB]

Usually mine Vortex

 

[MCLS]

Button is a mid grid driver? I'm not as such a Button fan but I couldn't disagree more with that. He's only finished below 10th in the WCC three times and they were in god awful cars which never had a hope of getting in the points, and he still managed to get into the points on occasion in 2001,7 and 8. Looking more specifically, his performances in 2004 and 2006 show he's not when he was the best of the rest in both seasons, (in 2006 the latter half when he got more points than anyone else). Really, Buttons 2006 season can, in terms of performance, be compared to Hamiltons 2009 season. Very bad start, but turnaround in the summer, get a win at Hungary, and get more points than anyone else to the end of the season

 

[racecub]

Its always someone else’s fault isn’t it!

No he has to take some responsibility for 2010

 

[ExtremeNinja]

He should take responsibility for all his failures just as he might hope for praise for all his successes. I would apply that logic to any person. I don't believe for a second that 2010 is the only time Hamilton has ever made a mistake. Anyway, you have argued countless times that his demeanour and behaviour in 2010 was a result of external influences beyond his control, as you do with all of his shortcomings.

 

[racecub]

He should take responsibility for all his failures just as he might hope for praise for all his successes. I would apply that logic to any person. I don't believe for a second that 2010 is the only time Hamilton has ever made a mistake. Anyway, you have argued countless times that his demeanour and behaviour in 2010 was a result of external influences beyond his control, as you do with all of his shortcomings.

No. I argued external influences for 2011. And I haven't said 2010 was the only time Hamilton has made a mistake, clearly he's made more than that. I said2010 was a year when his mistakes may have cost the championship. I'm sure he does take responsibility for his failures. I've not said he doesn't.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

teabagyokel. Not that I don't appreciate your efforts but, the graph is misleading as it shows a linear gradient between the end of each championships. Championships all begin at zero and are not a continuation from the previous year's results. It's the wrong type of visualisation for this type of data. A paired bar-chart would be more appropriate.

racecub. If you say so. I agree with some of your last post except the bit where you excuse yourself by contradicting or denying your previous statements, which is most of it. Please don't ask me to go back and read your entire post history of the site as your defence. I would have no inclination to go and do that whatsoever. Your last sentence was "I'm sure he does take responsibility for his failures. I've not said he doesn't.". Well now your just twisting things around, because nobody is accusing Hamilton of not taking responsibility for his failures. I was actually accusing you of not acknowledging his failures. For the most part, at least. Anyway, I could imagine this conversation could heat up and go nowhere, so let's leave it. We won't achieve anything by discussing it further. You will carry on being you and I will carry on being me. Much to the annoyance of some people, I am sure.

 

[The Pits]

teabagyokel lovely graphic, and subsequent discussion has been moved here

http://cliptheapex.com/threads/lies-damned-lies-and-pretty-graphs.5624/

 

[racecub]

racecub. . Your last sentence was "I'm sure he does take responsibility for his failures. I've not said he doesn't.". Well now your just twisting things around, because nobody is accusing Hamilton of not taking responsibility for his failures. I was actually accusing you of not acknowledging his failures..

Well you've confused me now. You began your post by saying " He should take responsibility for all his failures just as he might hope for praise for all his success". that's what I was replying to.I thought you were talking about Hamilton not my views because you said 'he' I certainly wasn't trying to twist anything, I was answering what I thought you said.

 

[Mephistopheles]

How on earth anyone can call a driver who has won a world championship, a driver who was hailed as a phenomenon upon his arrival into F1, a driver who has taken on the so called best and beaten the so called best. "A mid field driver." Is way beyond my comprehension....