Grid Penalties and the way they are Applied.

[Mephistopheles]

Grid Penalties and the way they are applied.

As the rule says that grid penalties are applied in order of the time they were given it got me thinking that may not be the fairest way of doing it.
Take this scenario it may not be likely to happen but to show something maybe wrong it is best to take to breaking point to prove it.

Driver’s A, B, C, D and E all receive a five place grid penalty in the order of driver A first, driver B second, driver C third, D forth and E fifth.

In this scenario they just so happen qualify pole to fifth in that same order and so under the present system the penalties would be awarded like this.

Grid before penalties
1. Driver A
2. Driver B
3. Driver C
4. Driver D
5. Driver E
6. Driver F
7. Driver G
8. Driver H
9. Driver I
10. Driver J

First penalty applied
1. Driver B
2. Driver C
3. Driver D
4. Driver E
5. Driver F
6. Driver A
7. Driver G
8. Driver H
9. Driver I
10. Driver J

Second penalty applied
1. Driver C
2. Driver D
3. Driver E
4. Driver F
5. Driver A
6. Driver B
7. Driver G
8. Driver H
9. Driver I
10. Driver J

Third penalty applied
1. Driver D
2. Driver E
3. Driver F
4. Driver A
5. Driver B
6. Driver C
7. Driver G
8. Driver H
9. Driver I
10. Driver J

Forth penalty applied
1. Driver E
2. Driver F
3. Driver A
4. Driver B
5. Driver C
6. Driver D
7. Driver G
8. Driver H
9. Driver I
10. Driver J

Fifth Penalty applied
1. Driver F
2. Driver A
3. Driver B
4. Driver C
5. Driver D
6. Driver E
7. Driver G
8. Driver H
9. Driver I
10. Driver J

So what has happened? A five place grid penalty has turned into a one place grid penalty for each driver, actually if I had included six drivers none of them would have lost any places at all, is this right? Or should the rule be changed to block move where all the drivers are dropped at the same time from their original grid position as follows.

Grid before penalties
1. Driver A
2. Driver B
3. Driver C
4. Driver D
5. Driver E
6. Driver F
7. Driver G
8. Driver H
9. Driver I
10. Driver J

Grid after penalties
1. Driver F
2. Driver G
3. Driver H
4. Driver I
5. Driver J
6. Driver A
7. Driver B
8. Driver C
9. Driver D
10. Driver E

I think this way would make more sense I know that this scenario is not likely but it has been shown that drivers have made up one or two places on a so called five place penalty which to me doesn't seem right.

 

[Kamui-FastestChefInTheWorld]

What if a driver who qualifies in 8th has a 3 place penalty and the driver who qualifies 6th has a 5 place penalty?

 

[Mephistopheles]

A good point as they would both try to occupy the 11th grid slot so in that case the lower driver would have to start from 12th..

I'm not saying my solution is perfect but I think it has more merit....

 

[Mezzer]

Wouldn't you have to say who had the penalty first?

 

[Kamui-FastestChefInTheWorld]

Meh, if it ain't (fully) broke, don't fix it. Don't see the problem now, to be honest.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I just think that if you get a five place grid penalty then that should as far as possible be a five place grid penalty not a one or a two.

 

[Brogan]

What about drivers who qualify in 22nd and get a 5 place grid drop penalty?

That is no penalty at all.

 

[Slyboogy]

Well what else can you give them? A time penalty would be unfair.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

Take a set of option tires away.

 

[Brogan]

That's my point.

No system is perfect.

 

[Slyboogy]

Oh I see.

 

[The Artist.....]

Mephistopheles

I agree that the penalties aren't working properly at the moment. To me, the penalties should be applied from the back of the grid forward. So, If you had drivers A,B,C,D having a 5 place grid penalty, and they qualified in the following order, then:

Original order:

1. A
2. B
3. C
4. D
5. E
6. F
7. G
8. H
9. I
10. J

i.e. , so the first penalty is imposed on driver D (As the last placed driver with a penalty), giving

1. A
2. B
3. C
4. E
5. F
6. G
7. H
8. I
9. D
10. J

Carrying this on over the 4 drivers with penalties gives us:

New order

1. E
2. F
3. G
4. H
5. I
6. A
7. B
8. C
9. D
10. J

This is much fairer, as it ensures that each driver gets the penalty they were given!

 

[Mephistopheles]

The Artist..... that seems like a very good system, all I know is that the present one is wrong...

 

[sushifiesta]

That still doesn't work in all cases.

1) A, 2) B, 3) C, 4) D, 5) E, 6) F

3 place penalty for B, 5 place penalty for A.

Demote B first:

1) A, 2) C, 3) D, 4) E, 5) B, 6) F

Then demote A:

1) C, 2) D, 3) E), 4) B, 5) F, 6) A.

After all penalties have been applied B is demoted 2 places not 3 places.

 

[Dizzi]

I think where practical the grid penalties should be applied simultaneously & not in chronological order of offense. If there is a clash then the timing can be taken into account.
I vaguely remember a race in 2009(?) where lots of drivers got penalties for speeding under yellow flags but because of the way it was applied some of the drivers only got 1 or 2 place penalties where others received 5 place for the same infringement. At the time I thought how wrong it seemed.

Talking of grid penalties I've heard various murblings about the unfairness of having a penalty because an external factor breaks a gearbox (see BBC pre-amble with Suzy & DC & Autosport comment from Ross Brawn). Just rumours or will they action something?? Would you change the rule or do you think it's open to abuse from teams?

 

[MCLS]

Japan 2009 I think it was Dizzi because a Toro Rosso crashed between Spoon and 130R,

 

[KekeTheKing]

Hopefully it never comes to this.....

 

[Bleu]

The strangest thing in Japan 2009 was that Sutil and Barrichello both got penalized. Sutil was faster but Barrichello ended up starting from better grid position.

 

[F1Yorkshire]

Interesting case today. Massa & Chilton both have 5 place penalties for gearbox changes. Massa did not set a time yet starts in front of Chilton....

 

[Brogan]

The 2013 Monaco GP again shows how unfair the current system is.

Massa does not take part in qualifying and has the gearbox changed so starts from the back.
Max Chilton subsequently has a gearbox change and is demoted five places, behind Massa.

So the driver who didn't even take part in qualifying starts ahead of a driver who did and who set a time which was good enough to get 20th.

Edit: Snap! F1Yorkshire