Ferrari - Are they making a mistake?

[Brogan]

Being serious for a minute, Ferrari could be big winners out of this and McLaren big losers.

If, as expected, Alonso has No.1 status then he will be given a free run at the WDC.
McLaren on the other hand will have the same situation they had in 2007 - 2 drivers both capable of winning the WDC (assuming Kimi returns).

Without team orders as there are in Ferrari, both McLaren drivers will be competing against each other with possibly Alonso coming out on top.

Of course that depends very much on the cars and how the teams manage to interpret the 2010 design changes.

Is it time for McLaren to start implementing team orders if they want to start winning more WDC's and WCC's?
(that last question is probably better off on a new thread).

 

[rufus_mcdufus]

Aren't we forgetting the welcome that Felipe's going to get at his first race back? If that race is the first race Alonso is in for Ferrari, then that's going to seriously steal Alonso's thunder. Alonso is going to see that Massa is considered #1 at Ferrari by a lot of their supporters - or certainly see it that way.

 

[Aerodynamics]

Being serious for a minute, Ferrari could be big winners out of this and McLaren big losers.

If, as expected, Alonso has No.1 status then he will be given a free run at the WDC.
McLaren on the other hand will have the same situation they had in 2007 - 2 drivers both capable of winning the WDC (assuming Kimi returns).

Without team orders as there are in Ferrari, both McLaren drivers will be competing against each other with possibly Alonso coming out on top.

Of course that depends very much on the cars and how the teams manage to interpret the 2010 design changes.

Is it time for McLaren to start implementing team orders if they want to start winning more WDC's and WCC's?
(that last question is probably better off on a new thread).

I honestly believe there will be no team orders at Ferrari next season, I doubt Massa would play second fiddle to anyone, the guy is part of the family so i cant see it happening under any circumstances.

Mclaren are probably the big losers in this as they have Alonso as their main rivals, Hamilton's a great driver but me thinks Alonso would comfortably beat him in the right environment

In 2007, it was very close between the 2 and considering the pressure Alonso was under, He coped with it fantastically well, To finish level on points with no support from Mclaren in 07 was remarkable imo, Imagine what he could do in a team which supports him instead of leaving him out in the cold? Tis frightening

 

[Brogan]

To finish level on points with no support from Mclaren in 07 was remarkable imo

I think it's stretching it a bit to say he had no support in 2007.
Why would McLaren pay him the highest salary in F1 (at the time) only to try and stop him winning the WDC?

Without revisiting the whole issue, Alonso was the one who had access to the stolen data and then threatened Ron Dennis with it so he only had himself to blame for the resulting situation within the team in the latter half of the season.

 

[GeoffP]

I also think it's pushing it some to say that Alonso was under more pressure than Hamilton in his rookie year. However, that whole discussion is probably best left under a rock somewhere..

 

[Aerodynamics]

To finish level on points with no support from Mclaren in 07 was remarkable imo

I think it's stretching it a bit to say he had no support in 2007.

OK, Minimal support compared to what Hamilton received.

 

[Aerodynamics]

I also think it's pushing it some to say that Alonso was under more pressure than Hamilton in his rookie year...

Why? Alonso had everything to lose, Hamilton had everything to gain, The pressure was on Alonso not Hamilton but that's just my opinion

 

[cider_and_toast]

I agree with KA on this one. Alonso was a 2 time world champion who suddenly found himself in a straight fight with his rookie team mate. Hamilton had nothing to loose and everything to gain in the first half of the season while Alonso's reputation was on the line. To be honest there have been very few rookies who have come into F1 and been as outspoken as Lewis and I think it would have been a bit of a shock to any team mate.

The rot started to set in after Monaco where Hamilton started complaining about being stopped from chasing Alonso down by the team and it was Hamilton who started the funny buisness in Hungary which led to Alonso's over long stay in the pits. Ironically I think the only driver on the grid who would not have been phased by any of this is Kimi Raikonen. Kimi always comes across as a man who just gets on with things and isn't too bothered about things outside of driving. I can't recall ever seeing Kimis familiy, manager, girl friend or lucky rabbit waiting in the pits for him.

So maybe both Ferrari and Mclaren are getting the drivers they need. Ferrari will have two fiery drivers who thrive on a family atmosphere within the team and Mclaren will have two driven, single minded drivers who won't bother each other. Either way it could (please I hope after 09) be a very interesting season next year.

 

[Muddytalker]

I largely agree with C_a_T on this, and would go so far as to say this.

All in my own humble opinion of course, but I disagree with the notion that Alonso wants, and wanted at McLaren unequivocal no.1 status, certainly to begin with at least (It may have been requested in 2008 when he returned to Renault though, possibly as a bargaining tool/insurance in case Piquet jnr proved as quick as Hamilton)

Rather, I believe that McLaren in their quest for 'equality for all drivers', adopted the policy first highlighted at Monaco, in that driver A had the optimum strategy, from qualifying through to the race end, whilst driver B had the 'back-up strategy', which allowed for safety cars, rain, getting stuck behind slower cars, etc.
Come the next race, this alternated, and driver B had the optimum strategy, whilst driver A now had the 'what if' settings.

So whilst McLaren as a team were covering all the bases, the drivers effectively each had 50% of their season compromised to an extent. I think, (and this is mostly off my own bat as I can't remember every quote from 2007, and we don't always know the full facts of both sides anyway), this is what Alonso couldn't understand and didn't agree with, and to a degree he was right as McLaren ended up losing the WDC.
However, you have to say that Hamilton handled the situation a lot better*, and was the team player whereas Alonso (in his mind) was fighting for the WDC, and clearly not bothered about the WCC.

*In the end. I think Lewis was just as frustrated with the policy by the time of Hungary, and his Q3 'disagreement' with RD simply blew Alonso's fuse. If it was intended, he played a blinder of a game.

With regards to 2010, I think Ferrari know what they are getting, and that is a quick, motivated and complete driver, and one who has a reputation to rebuild (again). As has been pointed out, Raikkonen is damn fast, but only when Felipe isn't around.

 

[Brogan]

I would agree with that pretty much.

The only element missing is that at Hungary, Kimi was between Lewis and Fernando and Lewis didn't want to slow down too much and was expecting Fernando to speed up to pass him.
When neither of them managed to make the agreed switch that's when it all went south.

 

[GeoffP]

Funny, I agree and disagree, so this is schizophrenia!

Reason being, I agree Alonso was under more pressure - Disagree because I believe he brought it on himself and was not put under more pressure.

It was Fernando's personailty and expectation that gave him the problem at the beginning of the season, just like it was Lewis' self doubt that made him fail at the end.

This is where I find it hard to express my opinion of Alonso. I think he is a stunning driver, has the great ability to set up a car brilliantly and a great tactical brain and focus to control his progress through a race as a whole. Unfortunately his ability to create self inflicted pressure and to carry it around with him is pretty unique too, especially in F1 racers of such maturity.

I think he will deinitely have learned from his McLaren experience, but his "fiery" nature, which is what makes him great is also what makes him fail, and yes, I'm sure the likes of Ferrari will have a better plan than I can think of to ensure they only reap benefts.

Also,

Rather, I believe that McLaren in their quest for 'equality for all drivers', adopted the policy first highlighted at Monaco, in that driver A had the optimum strategy, from qualifying through to the race end, whilst driver B had the 'back-up strategy', which allowed for safety cars, rain, getting stuck behind slower cars, etc.
Come the next race, this alternated, and driver B had the optimum strategy, whilst driver A now had the 'what if' settings.

I like this analysis, but I sort of suspect that it could have been Monaco where this was adopted. Just a guess, but maybe Lewis stamped his little feet about not just being banned from competing with Fernando, but also with being able to pick strategy, and just maybe Ron agreed parity and that is what triggered Fernando's eye being taken off the ball as he would have perceived he was No2 driver 50% of the time.

 

[Muddytalker]

Rather, I believe that McLaren in their quest for 'equality for all drivers', adopted the policy first highlighted at Monaco, in that driver A had the optimum strategy, from qualifying through to the race end, whilst driver B had the 'back-up strategy', which allowed for safety cars, rain, getting stuck behind slower cars, etc.
Come the next race, this alternated, and driver B had the optimum strategy, whilst driver A now had the 'what if' settings.

I like this analysis, but I sort of suspect that it could have been Monaco where this was adopted. Just a guess, but maybe Lewis stamped his little feet about not just being banned from competing with Fernando, but also with being able to pick strategy, and just maybe Ron agreed parity and that is what triggered Fernando's eye being taken off the ball as he would have perceived he was No2 driver 50% of the time.

Yeah, that could also have happened. There were a number of times in 2007 Lewis would say "I don't know what happened there", which I took to mean "Due to team instructions, I couldn't do what I wanted to, and it's piddling me off a bit"

Anyway, we appear to be veering off-topic a little. I see Alonso wants plenty more titles at Ferrari. Didn't he once say he'd retire at 3 WCs? - BBC link

 

[bogaTYR]

interesting is that nando wanted to join ferrari in 2011 but decided for 2010 cos of the briatore verdict. now that statement opens a whole lot of cans of sorts.

to me, it seems very odd a contract can simply be put forward a year. sounds like nando walked into Ferrari and said, ok guys... here i am! ok, i am one year early but such is life. how this can be done in a matter of weeks or even days makes little sense to me.

and what this says about ferrari and kimi is worrying. this is not the way any team should be seen treating a driver.

 

[Brogan]

this is not the way any team should be seen treating a driver.

I agree on the face of it, it doesn't seem fair on Kimi but we don't really know what happened.

By all accounts it was "mutual consent" between Kimi and Ferrari, probably the same "mutual consent" there was between Alonso and McLaren at the end of 2007

 

[cider_and_toast]

We've been discussing Alonso to Ferrari in 2010 way before the Crashgate scandel. Since Alonso only signed a one year deal with an option for 1 more at Renault and the reason he turned down several other teams because they would not offer the required terms suggests that he had a pretty good idea where he would be in 2010.

Sounds more like it's a another statement in support of Briatore rather than actual fact.

 

[Brogan]

Indeed cat, there was even an article yesterday which suggested Alonso and Ferrari signed some sort of agreement back in July 2008.

At least I'm sure I read something like that

 

[bogaTYR]

i wholly disagree with all these statements about macca this and macca that and nando this and LH that.

to me, with hindsight, what happened that year was very simple. LH walked in and took what he thought was his. there was no way macca would let him go, so the kid had a card blanche to do whatever he wanted and thats what he did.

this combined with having a great car, made for a situation where macca had a multi million dollar investment or capital expenditure versus a multi million dollar paid driver, or operational expenditure. so they did the obvious thing and went for their investment. the kid could do whatever he wanted, macca backed him up all the way, even when it was clear it was LH who created the mess, like in hungary and what we saw this year.

there was no way nando ever could survive this situation. it was simply not in the interest of macca to have nando winning races. and honestly, nothing has changed at macca. they still protect their investment. thats why rosberg will never join macca as long as LH is there. heikki now is a test driver and all he does is to use the races to test. all this talk of macca having equality in drivers is just talk and simply does not show on the track. its becoming too obvious...

 

[Brogan]

it was simply not in the interest of macca to have nando winning races

Of all the stuff I've read about the McLaren/Hamilton/Alonso affair in 2007, that has to be the maddest.

So McLaren paid the highest salary to a 2xWDC in the hope that he wouldn't win any races for them?

Seriously?

I suppose Lewis and McLaren forced Alonso to use stolen data from Ferrar too, did they?

 

[GeoffP]

Visiting Alonso's Ferrari contract again, I know it seems a little too easy and swift for Briatore to recommend Alonso got to Ferrari a year early and the contract to close after "crashgate", but let's face it, the FIA say that they were told about Singapore 2008 last year, but could not do anything until Piquet made a formal complaint.

Surely they would not have stopped there though, you'd have thought that Max would have spoken to the Renault powers that be, or Bernie and Bernie to Flavio. I sort of get a feeling that the writing was on the wall, in private, some time ago, only Flavio was planning to see the season out and maybe bow out WITH Renault and keep it all nice and quiet.

As a result Flavio may well have worked with Alonso to accelerate his Ferrari contract even before this season began, and may have led to rumours about Renault pulling out as a result of hurrying things along.

It's possible, but then it may just be Alonso wanting to twist the knife out of loyalty.

 

[Brogan]

Lewis speaks:

"I'm looking forward to it," said Hamilton. "It sounds like it could be an exciting year and back to the old days that I remember. I grew up watching Kimi and Fernando at the front, along with [Michael] Schumacher, and I see those guys as the greats. So being able to compete with Raikkonen and Alonso and to have [Felipe] Massa in there as well, it's going to be a close, close battle. As drivers, we always want to be racing against the best. And you always want to be ahead and be better."

Lewis Hamilton denies 'total war' with old foe Fernando Alonso next season