Technical Electric F1?

Galahad

Not a Moderator
Valued Member
As the permitted capacity increases, the weight/packaging equation surely moves towards the flywheel and away from the battery/supercapacitor option. The Williams system has been proved in the Audi R18 hybrid sportscar and I can imagine there being a few customers for 2014.

As for Formula E (interesting how every article has to reference F1 for some reason, even if irrelevant to the story), at this point it's little more than a toe in the water. I think it is unavoidable that motoring generally will move towards alternative energy sources, and F1 will have to reflect that (will probably have to be a little bit ahead of the curve, in fact).
 

Josephiah

Podium Finisher
http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/08/fia-announces-formula-e-is-it-the-future-of-motorsport/ has some more details. Funny you should mention Scalextric, Jen - have a look at the last few paras of this - interesting ideas of using induction coils in the road, but I don't think it would limit you to running in set lanes!

I'm all for it, first as an "alongside F1" thing*, then I'm sure the technologies will gradually spread. For me, the noise is fairly unimportant (though the idea of tailoring the noise of your car is an intriguing one), so as long as the speed, incredible acceleration and technology development race are all present and correct.

(*As Galahad notes notes above, it's clearly nothing to do with F1 at this stage).
 

sportsman

Sidecar racers have the biggest cojones
Contributor
Galahad.You have hit the nail on the head with your post.The chief reason Williams do not use their flywheel system id due to the paltry allowances allowed in the rules by the FIA.
The flywheel system is difficult to package into the existing chassis regulations and a bit heavier but in 2014 and the new regulations it becomes a very attractive alternative.
5.2.3 The maximum power, in or out, of any KERS must not exceed 60kW.
Energy released from the KERS may not exceed 400kJ in any one lap.
Measurements will be taken at the connection to the rear wheel drivetrain. [/QUOTE
This is the equivalent to driving a car at quarter throttle all the time as the Williams systems will generate three times that amount of energy in a single lap.
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
Off topic yet interesting, but when the forth seal was broken by the lamb and the words "Come and see." were heard Death wasn't riding a Pale horse he was riding a green horse and hell came with with him....

I know a bit philosophical but true, not in the sense that it is true but on the grounds that, that is how it is written..

Green is the unluckiest colour in the world according to insurance companies and so the green party should be aware that I know their game....

Har har har har....
 

The Pits

Harumph. Again.
Valued Member
If F1 was seriously interested in going greener, in addition to the carbon offsetting they do, they could apply all the proposed measures to the trucks and planes that transport stuff. Maybe an electric lorry driving from Woking to Budapest? Although likely to only get to Dover.
 

Mezzer

A fine chap if ever there was one.
Contributor
Well, I work in IT where there's a kind of "adapt or die" mentality so, personally, I could live with the move. Is there something special in the smell of the fuel at a circuit? Sure. Should we have stuck with racing steam-powered cars? Nope...
 

bytesize

Rookie
Global warming is no myth and neither is Peak oil (and peak everything else for that matter), on a finite planet there is a limit of everything. The 'Limits to Growth' book of 30 years ago (and new documentary in the making) shows how resources, population, pollution...assuming business as usual, all reach a peak sometime within the next few decades followed by collapse. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone; all biological systems reach a limit and then contract. Us 'wise apes' are no different.

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to the E formula.
 

RasputinLives

Leave me alone I'm on Smoko
Contributor
Global warming is no myth and neither is Peak oil (and peak everything else for that matter), on a finite planet there is a limit of everything. The 'Limits to Growth' book of 30 years ago (and new documentary in the making) shows how resources, population, pollution...assuming business as usual, all reach a peak sometime within the next few decades followed by collapse. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone; all biological systems reach a limit and then contract. Us 'wise apes' are no different.

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to the E formula.
Whilst I agree with you on principle I can't help but notice that the decades we're predicted to reach this peak and collapse keep getting further and further into the future. Back in the 90's it was around 2010 - now its about 2030 - whats the betting at 2030 it'll be 2050. I think your fundemental maths are right, however if you're not given the correct figures in the first place you're never going to get the right answer.

I'm not saying I'm one of them but you can understand why some people think that there may be a bit of "hey everyone worry about this instead of paying attention to what we're actually doing and oh yeah its a great excuse for us to make some money and start wars too" going on.

Perceptions change. Did anyone see that recent doc about green party activists who campaigned against nuclear power who were saying if they knew now what they did then they'd have been campaigning for it? Situations change.
 

Kewee

Race Winner
.

Perceptions change. Did anyone see that recent doc about green party activists who campaigned against nuclear power who were saying if they knew now what they did then they'd have been campaigning for it? Situations change.
There's some truth in what you say RasputinLives but energy and how man uses it and moreso the path he takes in the future is an evolving situation. Most Japanese have changed their views on nuclear power for reasons far more immediate and valid than any reasons the Greens can put forward. I'm one who believes mans needs and the importance for him to retain his mobility and to continue to trade globally are far too necessary for him to not find an alternative, in fact the alternative is almost certainly already available but unnecessary to turn to until the depletion of oil runs much closer.
 

bytesize

Rookie
Whilst I agree with you on principle I can't help but notice that the decades we're predicted to reach this peak and collapse keep getting further and further into the future. Back in the 90's it was around 2010 - now its about 2030 - whats the betting at 2030 it'll be 2050. I think your fundemental maths are right, however if you're not given the correct figures in the first place you're never going to get the right answer..
Wise words. I agree with you and I'm a greenie. It is possible engineering solutions will reduce our impact on the planet for a good more decades than predicted. One of the reasons I like F1 is that they're about pushing the boundaries. I'm all for advancement whilst recognising that we're hard up against limits and step improvements are harder and more expensive to achieve in the same way it becomes harder and more expensive to find new oil reserves, more efficient engines etc, while the head winds of increasing freakish weather, wild fires, floods, droughts - it's, for instance, said food prices will rocket next year as a result of the drought in the US - makes our task that much harder.
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
On the bit about oil running out the facts are that since man has started using oil as an energy source we have managed to use 1 Tbl and there are an estimated 11 Tbl of oil left on the the planet this means it is far from running out however it is also estimated that that at the moment that we can only extract 5.5 Tbl of the remaining oil which would still take centuries to use up and by that time extraction processes will be much better and so far more of it if not all of it would be extracted which takes even more centuries to use.

Add to that, that man is getting more and more efficient at extracting and getting more energy out of a lesser amount I don't think depleting oil supplies is an issue, man will have come up with a much better source of energy (The chances are we already have but the oil companies don't want us to know about it yet.) thousands of years before the planet is running on empty.

Hardly a cause for concern at the moment I think.

I'm not going to debate the green issue because making an F1 car travel down the pit lane on an electric motor is going to do sod all in terms of saving the planet....
 

Josephiah

Podium Finisher
Peak oil production already happened (do a quick google image search for oil production graph). Mephistopheles, I'm not sure where you got those numbers from, but even supposing there are huge amounts left, with declining extraction and increasing demand, it will most certainly be a problem (and that's excluding any other reasons for finding alternatives - climate change, emissions, yada yada...).

Yes, oil companies do make incremental improvements in extracting a little more here and there by improved methods, but the overall picture is still one of decline. (The Gulf states might be an exception to that, but they come with their own issues!)

New ways of harnessing energy take enormous amounts of time and effort to develop, manufacture and deploy, so any solutions won't show up overnight* - more like decades to get to an oil-replacing level of generation.

If we're not going to think about it now, when would you propose we start?

*I know, I work for a wave energy company - we're designing not for now, but for several years ahead of now.
 

Mephistopheles

Banned
Contributor
I got them from a study done by a university on oil reserves which I checked against numerous other such studies the problem isn't oil reserves the problem is getting to them as they are trapped in the most remote parts of the world such a Antarctica When it has been said oil production has reached its peak they are only talking about currently operated fields and not what is left beneath the surface.

Deep oil well drilling is in its infancy and currently they can only extract 40% of the fields they are drilling and less than that for undersea Oil as far as oil is concerned we haven't even scratched the surface of it.

Some sites will say the oil is running out but this is simply not true it is like De Beers telling people that Diamonds are scarce but the fact is they are not De Beers only allow a small percentage of the diamonds they find onto the market so they can artificially inflate the value of the stones, and the same is going on in the oil industry, it is nothing more than a massive con being played on the general population, as the rarer something seems to be the more value we put on it, and the more profit these massive organizations make out of it..
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Portugal produces 52% of it's electrical energy requirements from renewable sources. I appreciate they have a lot of sunshine but it makes you wonder if Portugal can do it why can't others? Hey, maybe because there isn't so much tax revenue to be collected from non-oil and coal related power options, or is that just me being cynical (again)?
 
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