Christian Horner - Team Principal?

[Il_leone]

...and blowing the Red Bull trumpet. He is now starting to sound multi-talented.

Thats the only think I think he's done well in establishing a good base to work with



Do you disagree? I think that pairing would be a nightmare for any team principal.


Not as as difficult as Hamilton and Alonso. If anything judging by these past few seasons it would be Hamilton who would implode more easily but then I expect Lewis to come back far stronger this year and show a different side of him


Also, seeing as that you don't think that Horner is involved in anything other than recommending drivers to Helmut and Dietrich (although you also said earlier that it was Helmut and Dietrich that chose the drivers) and blowing the trumpet, once he had made this selection, it would be someone else's problem, right? (Although it wouldn't be him who made the selection... or would it?)

Since when has Horner recommended drivers at Red Bull these days ? Its Helmut who is calling the shots.
Horner got DC when it was too risky with two rookies. When Klein got sacked instead of putting Liuzzi / Speed or Doornbos they went for Webber because in doing so they could get their hands on cheaper Renault engines..one of Flavio's back handed business doings

DC retired because he knew there was pressure inside to promote Vettel if he failed and given he was the older driver..now Webber is being pushed gradually because Helmut wants to see another Vettel in the other car..

 

[Mephistopheles]

Horner was the one who had a meeting with Lewis during Montreal about it when it was suppose to be just for a drink !

Ahhh yes a tasty little rumour

 

[Brogan]

Horner was the one who had a meeting with Lewis during Montreal about it when it was suppose to be just for a drink !

Yes, I was aware of that.
I just wasn't sure where the "begging for a drive" came into it.

It would be a brave man indeed to join Red Bull as the second driver, while it is undeniably focussed towards Vettel.

Or foolish.

 

[Josh]

Since when has Horner recommended drivers at Red Bull these days ? Its Helmut who is calling the shots.
Horner got DC when it was too risky with two rookies. When Klein got sacked instead of putting Liuzzi / Speed or Doornbos they went for Webber because in doing so they could get their hands on cheaper Renault engines..one of Flavio's back handed business doings

DC retired because he knew there was pressure inside to promote Vettel if he failed and given he was the older driver..now Webber is being pushed gradually because Helmut wants to see another Vettel in the other car..

Again - where is your evidence that Helmut is calling the shots? I'd like to believe you but if you don't have any proof then it's hard to take seriously.

 

[Mephistopheles]

Again - where is your evidence that Helmut is calling the shots? I'd like to believe you but if you don't have any proof then it's hard to take seriously.

People draw conclusions from the things they see and hear and things that happen, the fact that different people draw different conclusions from the same events is hardly surprising and doesn't make one conclusion any less or any more true than the other.

If you are going to ask someone to provide proof to support his conclusion, then you must be prepare to have undeniable evidence to counter his claim.

I could ask you to provide evidence that Il_leone is wrong but I have no absolute proof that either of you is right.

But my gut feeling is that he is correct.

Wadaya reckon?

 

[Viscount]

It would be a brave man indeed to join Red Bull as the second driver, while it is undeniably focussed towards Vettel.

Or foolish.

The same could've been said about Button joining McLaren.

 

[Viscount]

People draw conclusions from the things they see and hear and things that happen, the fact that different people draw different conclusions from the same events is hardly surprising and doesn't make one conclusion any less or any more true than the other.

If you are going to ask someone to provide proof to support his conclusion, then you must be prepare to have undeniable evidence to counter his claim.

I could ask you to provide evidence that Il_leone is wrong but I have no absolute proof that either of you is right.

But my gut feeling is that he is correct.

Wadaya reckon?

I would consider this proof that Christian Horner is a good team principal:

What is the main job/goal of a team principal? To ensure their team wins the constructors championship.
What has Christian Horner's team done the past 2 seasons? Won 2 constructors titles...


Formula One is one of the most ruthless businesses in the world and Dietrich Mateschitz invests hundreds of millions into Red Bull Racing. To be honest Christian Horner is replaceable, but if he was not great at his job he would have been replaced already. Mateschitz is probably the most qualified person to judge Christian Horner and the fact that he continues to employ Horner indicates that he believes Horner is good at his job.

Horner does have a great team under him, notably Adrian Newey and Vettel who will overshadow anything he does. But this is basically like when a driver in the best car wins the championship, then people saying that they're a bad driver and it was just the car. A driver still has to drive it to the flag just like Horner drives the Red Bull team to multiple championships.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Again - where is your evidence that Helmut is calling the shots? I'd like to believe you but if you don't have any proof then it's hard to take seriously.

Well in the absence of evidence to the contrary, lionmans proposition makes sense and does feel like its how it could have happened

Away from the head and the need for facts it feels right

I think it's good to be able to read between the lines and use the million processors we have runnIng in parallel between our ears

In time we will surely know the truth though regarding who the rainmaker at Red Bull is

 

[Mephistopheles]

Cook the last thing I would call CH is a "rainmaker",

He is probably an okay team principal but all my perceptions of him could be boiled down to something Gunny Highway (Clint Eastwood) said in the film Hearbreak Ridge to Major Malcolm A Powers "With all due respect sir, you're beginning to bore the hell out of me".

Just to avoid confusion Major Powers is how I see Horner.

 

[jez101]

I'm almost too scared to ask, but when was this?

Well... "begging" might just be my subjective opinion

But there were two meetings last year, one in Montreal and another one at a different time (p49 this weeks autosport). Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but I don't think that Horner would have initiated two meetings with a rival driver who is under contract for another year and a half. Let's face it, if Horner had been trying to sign Lewis, who thinks Lewis would have said no? - and sorry, but I don't think they were just having a friendly Red Bull together

 

[The Pits]

Maybe Christian Horner could swap places with Vettel for a season? That way Seb could get to be TP of a WCC squad, and Christian could win a WDC. He may even be able to show young Seb how to really race and overtake!!

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Well... "begging" might just be my subjective opinion

But there were two meetings last year, one in Montreal and another one at a different time (p49 this weeks autosport). Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions but I don't think that Horner would have initiated two meetings with a rival driver who is under contract for another year and a half. Let's face it, if Horner had been trying to sign Lewis, who thinks Lewis would have said no? - and sorry, but I don't think they were just having a friendly Red Bull together

I think Lewis walked into Red Bull and said 'there has to be a trick on that car, let me test it and I'll beat Sebs times'

 

[FB]

F1 contract negotiations are notoriously unscrupulous. Take, for example, when Nelson Piquet left Brabham for Williams, Bernie had an agreement with Ron Dennis that Mclaren would not offer PIquet more than Brabham were. Unbeknown to Bernie, Nelson was also talking to Williams and got far more than Bernie was prepared to pay.

I state this example as the motivation behind both parties in such a meeting is questionable. Hamilton to let Mclaren know he's not a patsy who will just take what he is offered and roll over like a good doggy. Horner to let Webber and Vettel know that there are other drivers out there who will happily take their seat and probably for less than their agent is holding out for. Net result, Lewis has a stronger negotiating position at Mclaren, Horner has a nice stick to beat his existing drivers with. Good for both sides isn't it?

 

[Brogan]

Net result, Lewis has a stronger negotiating position at Mclaren, Horner has a nice stick to beat his existing drivers with.

That would be true if it weren't for this: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/red-bull-racing.3373/page-5#post-113238

Hamilton's options are down to a choice of one as far as I can see.
Unless he wants to move to a mid-field team.

 

[The Pits]

Hamilton's options are down to a choice of one as far as I can see.
Unless he wants to move to a mid-field team.

I think that will also depend on this seasons performances. I am sure there are a number of contracts which are coming up at the end of 2012, with the teams possibly providing a good opportunity, like Mercedes, Lotus.

 

[FB]

Wasn't Webber's position still in question when the much heralded meeting between LH and CH took place?

CH: How much do want to race for us?
LH: Well I get £10 million a year from Mclaren so double it
CH: Give me two minutes

CH (On the phone): Mark, we'll give you £20 and a bag of fun size Mars bars. Oh, and Sebastian will pretend to have a gear box problem in Brazil so that you can "win". Deal? Good

CH: Thanks Lewis, we'll get back to you.

 

[The Pits]

Wasn't Webber's position still in question when the much heralded meeting between LH and CH took place?

CH: How much do want to race for us?
LH: Well I get £10 million a year from Mclaren so double it
CH: Give me two minutes

CH (On the phone): Mark, we'll give you £20 and a bag of fun size Mars bars. Oh, and Sebastian will pretend to have a gear box problem in Brazil so that you can "win". Deal? Good

CH: Thanks Lewis, we'll get back to you.

Oh, Come on FB, we all know Mark only races for Tim Tams.

 

[Josh]

I think it's good to be able to read between the lines and use the million processors we have runnIng in parallel between our ears

Well I guess I'll just bow down to your superior intelligence, then?

People draw conclusions from the things they see and hear and things that happen, the fact that different people draw different conclusions from the same events is hardly surprising and doesn't make one conclusion any less or any more true than the other.

If you are going to ask someone to provide proof to support his conclusion, then you must be prepare to have undeniable evidence to counter his claim.

I could ask you to provide evidence that Il_leone is wrong but I have no absolute proof that either of you is right.

But my gut feeling is that he is correct.

Wadaya reckon?

I'm not prepared to have undeniable evidence to counter his claim as I'm not interested in that, I'm just interested in where he got the idea that Helmut takes care of pretty much everything, including signing the contracts. He keeps saying that as if it's a fact while I've seen nothing which actually makes it a fact. It's just an assumption.

 

[FB]

Ah, we're back to opinions I have some sympathy with Josh's point of view. If someone states something as if it is a fact, but without any evidence to back it up, it is perfectly reasonable to question the validity of their statement without having anything to counter it. If you build a house on sand...

 

[Mephistopheles]

My point is that nobody can prove anything, I see a lot of people write that Whitmarsh sabotages Hamilton's races and they know this to be true because it doesn't happen when Ron's hanging round the pits, this is blatantly bollocks because Lewis has had problems in races where Ron has been there and that is a fact.

The situation at Red Bull is different to this as it goes on behind closed doors and all that any of us can do is surmise and draw a conclusion from our gut..

In which case maybe the whole subject isn't worth talking about..