Il_leone
World Champion
I agree he comes across smug the ride height comment was rammed down his throat the next day in China when it rained. He was not laughing when Vettel spun in Canada on the last lap
I agree he comes across smug the ride height comment was rammed down his throat the next day in China when it rained. He was not laughing when Vettel spun in Canada on the last lap
Il_leone
World Champion
Il_leone
World Champion
Well okay, there has been a lot of talk about opinions this last week and whether they are totally against the grain or bang in line with general consensus, we are all entitled to them. We shall agree to disagree.
Unless we are going to have a thread for each team principal, is the Red Bull thread not a good enough place for this?
I have two problems with CH the first one is trivial, but the second one is more serious.
The first is his voice it is slightly monotone and it bores me silly.
The second one was his stance on webber during the 2010 season, I believe anyone with eyes could tell that when Vettel and Webber came together in Turkey it was at least 99% Vettel's fault and yet Horner blamed Mark Vettel Blamed Mark and the whole team got behind Vettel.
I believe that CH is just a puppet and it is the German paymasters who run Red Bull, Red Bull winning consecutive championships would have happened with or without him.
Thats it I've had my say................................................................................
The first is his voice it is slightly monotone and it bores me silly.
The second one was his stance on webber during the 2010 season, I believe anyone with eyes could tell that when Vettel and Webber came together in Turkey it was at least 99% Vettel's fault and yet Horner blamed Mark Vettel Blamed Mark and the whole team got behind Vettel.
I believe that CH is just a puppet and it is the German paymasters who run Red Bull, Red Bull winning consecutive championships would have happened with or without him.
Thats it I've had my say................................................................................
Cookinflatsix
Banned
I can see the merit in the lionmans point
The way I see it is that CH (with MW and Domenicaly) are a different breed to the old traditional F1 bosses like Ron. Enzo Sauber etc
Those guys had everything on the line and answered to no one, they lived and died by their decisions on everything and nothing is more important or tougher than the relationship with the drivers who 'drive' the whole enterprise
These guys nowadays typically have their immediate boss in the pit ( the sports director of the manufacturer) and or the owners or their reps
If CH is not making decisions about the drivers as I'll leone points out and is playing the media mouthpiece then he is half the old school boss in his importance. I'm sure he does well managing the team but I am sure lots of guys who run a kwick fit tyre joint could adapt to that task given the same education and help and Newey
So maybe he isn't just blowing the red bull trumpet but compared to a Ron or Enzo the hardest part of all doesn't need to cause him sleepnes nights as its not his decision to make
The way I see it is that CH (with MW and Domenicaly) are a different breed to the old traditional F1 bosses like Ron. Enzo Sauber etc
Those guys had everything on the line and answered to no one, they lived and died by their decisions on everything and nothing is more important or tougher than the relationship with the drivers who 'drive' the whole enterprise
These guys nowadays typically have their immediate boss in the pit ( the sports director of the manufacturer) and or the owners or their reps
If CH is not making decisions about the drivers as I'll leone points out and is playing the media mouthpiece then he is half the old school boss in his importance. I'm sure he does well managing the team but I am sure lots of guys who run a kwick fit tyre joint could adapt to that task given the same education and help and Newey
So maybe he isn't just blowing the red bull trumpet but compared to a Ron or Enzo the hardest part of all doesn't need to cause him sleepnes nights as its not his decision to make
I would not have thought that choosing drivers for the top team on the grid would ever be too much of an issue. They have the budget, and the queue of drivers should something go wrong. Besides, I believe that CH is fairly closely involved with the young driver program.
How well the team would do without him there, I do not know, however, the team existed under Jacky Stewart, and won one race, then under the might of Ford, with Rahal, and Lauda at the helm, they managed two podiums, and a mighty 7th in the constructors championship.
That he still has a job, speaks volumes, regardless of what anyone thinks of him.
How well the team would do without him there, I do not know, however, the team existed under Jacky Stewart, and won one race, then under the might of Ford, with Rahal, and Lauda at the helm, they managed two podiums, and a mighty 7th in the constructors championship.
That he still has a job, speaks volumes, regardless of what anyone thinks of him.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
Just to clarify, although there are specific team and driver threads, we would never dissuade anyone from starting a new thread if they want to discuss a specific issue.
The dedicated threads are just intended to be somewhere to post non-specific stuff such as links to interviews, etc. but of course in depth discussion is also an option, if that's what people want to do.
I honestly don't see how his team can't have achieved success. I'm sure many of the other TPs would have achieved similar success if they had the RB6 and RB7 chassis. Of course there is an excellent collection of people at Red Bull, however how much Horner contributed towards attracting those talented individuals who knows.
On a personal level I don't like the man. He seems rather boring and a bit of a puppet with regards to what the Austrians higher up want, especially in 2010 when Vettel and Webber were more closely matched. Particularly when his opinion on the Turkey incident changed from 50/50 to mostly Webber's fault.
On a personal level I don't like the man. He seems rather boring and a bit of a puppet with regards to what the Austrians higher up want, especially in 2010 when Vettel and Webber were more closely matched. Particularly when his opinion on the Turkey incident changed from 50/50 to mostly Webber's fault.
Exactly CH's success has less to do with him and more to do with the fact they have a great car designer Frank Williams went bankrupt twice trying to get his team off the ground on his third attempt he was running his business out of a telephone box because he couldn't afford to pay his phone bill, and we all know what he achieved, now that's a team principal.
Horner is just a face for the PR stuff. nothing more than that.
Horner is just a face for the PR stuff. nothing more than that.
Cookinflatsix
Banned
The about turn about where the blame lay for the Vettel/Webber crash
I think that's what il leone was referring to as evidence that CH doesn't pull the strings like real F1 bosses of years gone past
Also his criticism of Ferraris team orders only to obviously be ordered by his bosses to do similar for Seb
Just my opinion of course
I think that's what il leone was referring to as evidence that CH doesn't pull the strings like real F1 bosses of years gone past
Also his criticism of Ferraris team orders only to obviously be ordered by his bosses to do similar for Seb
Just my opinion of course
I am not sure that success has come from any team without a team of people behind them.
At Williams, they had Patrick Head at the start, and Adrian Newey. Names like John Barnard, Harvey Postlethwaite, Rory Byrne, and Gordon Murray are prevalent in the history of the sport.
One man does not make a team.
A team principle is like the conductor of an orchestra, and needs to tie everything together. Despite the Turkey 2010 issue, is there any evidence other than peoples perception as to why he is not a good TP?
At Williams, they had Patrick Head at the start, and Adrian Newey. Names like John Barnard, Harvey Postlethwaite, Rory Byrne, and Gordon Murray are prevalent in the history of the sport.
One man does not make a team.
A team principle is like the conductor of an orchestra, and needs to tie everything together. Despite the Turkey 2010 issue, is there any evidence other than peoples perception as to why he is not a good TP?
An interesting interview with CH and some comments from JYS on his management style:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...e-front-with-unassuming-leadership-style.html
What none of us can know is what his day job involves. He doesn't design the car, he doesn't build the car, he certainly doesn't drive it but he obviously provides a fulcrum around which the team operates and I defy anyone to suggest he hasn't done a bloody good job in helping to build Red Bull into the most dominant team currently in F1.
I do think people let their personal, subjective opinions on people cloud their view of a man who the owner of Red Bull obviously values very highly.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/mo...e-front-with-unassuming-leadership-style.html
What none of us can know is what his day job involves. He doesn't design the car, he doesn't build the car, he certainly doesn't drive it but he obviously provides a fulcrum around which the team operates and I defy anyone to suggest he hasn't done a bloody good job in helping to build Red Bull into the most dominant team currently in F1.
I do think people let their personal, subjective opinions on people cloud their view of a man who the owner of Red Bull obviously values very highly.
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