Are McLaren Diluting Their WDC Efforts By Not Backing A Number 1?

[RickD]

I totally agree Grizzly, it does seem like we have been invaded by the Hamilton fanclub of late. I know most people on this forum support him, but it does seem to be getting feverish and the blame for his recent failures seems to be to see who else we can blame except Lewis himself. All these 'fans' need to look at their hero and realise he is not infallible.

I do not include most of the older members in this assesment as we have had many mature discussions on this board, but I would hate to see the board decend into the farce that is 606, although it does seem to be going that way.

 

[Galahad]

With all due respect, Button was not at McLaren in 2008, Hamilton was in his second year in F1 and Heikki was doing little to enhance the teams results, McLaren/Hamilton won the WDC in that year without much strategic input from another driver.

I would contend that drivers have very little input on strategy, the engineers, Pit Control are more important.

McLaren's problems of late are poor strategic calls and pit crew errors, this leaves the drivers in compromised positions, thus having to push harder, this sometimes causes more on track fustrations, which leads to more errors.

If you've got a performance advantage, it's not as important to get the strategy right. When you're behind, or if it's close, then it becomes vital. There are numerous examples; Schumacher and Brawn at Ferrari in the late 90's; Alonso and Renault in '05-'06. The driver can leave it up to the team, or he can get fully immersed in the decision-making process. In my view, the driver who is trying to get an advantage over his rivals in every dimension of the sport would do the latter.

 

[Sarinaide]

I don't want to stray but I don't see the big issue about a defined number 1 driver? Teams employ personel for a reason and your roles are defined therewithin........needless to say I really don't believe that Hamilton is not a clear number 1 at McLaren.

 

[Slyboogy]

Agree with Chris1981 - I like the way McLaren go racing, where there is no clear favouritism. If you want team orders, go support Ferrari with their vile Machiavellian internal politics.

If Lewis is so bloody brilliant (and Jenson so inferior), then why isn't he "doing a Heikki" on him? Sorry Ray, I think your basic premise is flawed here.

I think it's quite wrong to say "doing a Heikki" - we know that McLaren fully concentrated on Hamilton after Alonso left, Heikki even during the first few races always had the bad strategy out of the two, the only time I remember him having a better strategy was in Monza 2009. Heikki after he left McLaren came out saying "I knew why I was slow".

So I find it unfair to compare Kovaleinen's position with Button, different circumstances.

Back to topic, it's no secret McLaren would prefer the WCC rather than the WDC, hence why both drivers are getting equal treatment.

Unlike Ferrari who want to prove that they can get a title with all the changes they have done to the team, and do anything to get it.

 

[TN23]

It is true to say that Hamilton probably is better than Button- but Button will probably always be lurking very closely to take advantage of problems- and can beat Hamilton if he doesn't perform well. I like the way that McLaren don't choose a de facto number 1 as Ferrari have done, and Red Bull may well have done (Although Vettel's superiority could be down to Webber's lack of confidence since his spin in Korea last year and his inability to make the tyres go that extra few laps)- but I think that they've lost the championship because Vettel has been remarkably consistent and has maximised the track position he's had in the last two races. Basically, no- Hamilton's problems have been either of his own making or errors by the team (Why wouldn't you get an early lap in at Monaco?)

 

[chris1981]

Taking the clear number 1 and 2 issue to a slightly extreme level, if (for example) at Monaco Mclaren were to do whats best for the drivers championship and maximise Hamiltons race, they would have slowed Button to back the back up meaning Hamilton could make up maximum ground. (I cant imagine any team really trying this though to be honest!)

I dont think this is what most people would want to see though. No disrespect to Kovy but in the Mclaren he was never really there to pick up the peices if Hamilton failed. At least with Button they have two drivers who are real front runners.

On a seperate note I notice some people, including in the 1st post talking about poor pit stops. I dont really think this is anything to do with driver preference in a team. They will try and do the pit stops as best as they can regardless. Its just a shame they havent always been brilliant at them!

A final point, as I dont think I really answered the question earlier, "Are McLaren Diluting Their WDC Efforts By Not Backing A Number 1?" I would say yes they are diluting their efforts. However, as explained, I am glad they are doing it.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

But briefly, being a successful driver is about more than raw speed, and Button is very frequently closer to Hamilton in races than he is in qualifying; he's a more considered driver, and is able to direct the team on strategy, something Lewis still seems incapable of.

I am not sure this can be quatified and maybe is more an impression,

There is no evidence that Button directs successful strategies, for every strategic call attributed tonJenson such as Australia 2010 there is also a Korea 2010
This year we have seen Button admit that he relies on the teams strategic calls which have turned out to be flawed, China 2011, on this occasion Lewis famously overturned his team suggestion and saved an extra set of tyres etc

Jensons strategic input is the same as lewis' he says yes when the team tell him what's best. The two results he had last season were more tactical lucky calls than strategic genius

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I totally agree Grizzly, it does seem like we have been invaded by the Hamilton fanclub of late. I know most people on this forum support him, but it does seem to be getting feverish and the blame for his recent failures seems to be to see who else we can blame except Lewis himself. All these 'fans' need to look at their hero and realise he is not infallible.

I do not include most of the older members in this assesment as we have had many mature discussions on this board, but I would hate to see the board decend into the farce that is 606, although it does seem to be going that way.

The forum rules allow support for a favourite driver, they also allow for criticising other drivers

The combination of these two things can lead to something not in the rules, retaliatory insults to other members or group of members by the criticised drivers fans

The Ops view is that Mclaren are diluting their efforts, he feels Button should not get in the way of Lewis if Seb is to be beaten

This type of view is unpalatable for many who then retaliate by unnecessary tit for tat ad hominem attacks on 'Lewis supporters' or 'Lewis fanboys' etc

This is what causes the descent into the idiocy found on 606

The rules are clear and concise, if everyone sticks to them.........

 

[RasputinLives]

Theres a flaw in all of this Ray

At this stage last season - after 6 GPs - Button had 70 points and 2 wins whilst Hamilton had 59 points and no wins. Did you think then that Mclaren were 'diluting' their championship challenge by not making Button number 1 driver?

This season Lewis has 85 points and 1 win whilst Jenson has 76 points and no wins and your suggesting that they focus on Lewis? seems a little odd to me - I'm sure you'll quote me some stats from qualifying to prove why they should but you seem to miss something fundamental about the Mclaren/Hamilton/Button dynamic.

Is Button quicker than Lewis? on average over the season no but he's good enough to always been there on Lewis's shoulder - he's good enough always to be lurking there behind him. Even in the last race of the season last year Lewis knew if he messed up that Jenson could finish ahead of him in the championship. I truly believe the reason Jenson was hired by Mclaren was to keep Lewis sharp and on his toes and I think its worked exceptionally well. His driving last year was probably the best we've seen it since 2007 because he actually had a teammate who on his day could beat him.

Jenson knows his job is to get as close to Lewis as he possibley can through the season and Lewis knows his job is to make sure he doesn't give Jenson the chance to beat him. If Jenson actually beats Lewis then Mclaren are laughing because the only way he's going to beat Lewis is by driving like a demon and winning the world title.

So in answer to your question I don't think Mclaren are diluting their championship title by not focusing on one driver I think their making it stronger by having 2 top class drivers push each other on and why shouldn't they? worked for Red Bull last year.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

...it does seem like we have been invaded by the Hamilton fanclub of late...it does seem to be getting feverish and the blame for his recent failures seems to be to see who else we can blame except Lewis himself. All these 'fans' need to look at their hero and realise he is not infallible...I do not include most of the older members in this assesment as we have had many mature discussions on this board, but I would hate to see the board decend into the farce that is 606, although it does seem to be going that way.

First of all, Rick, you seem to have mistaken me for some common 606 Hamilton FanBoi. I'm neither common nor am I Lewis FanBoi. I do, however, respect his ability to drive a car very fast but also have no problem criticising him like I did in my "Why Didn't Hamilton Complete His Q3 Flyer..." thread on the Saturday of the Monaco Grand Prix here on CTA. Look it up and see for yourself. So, with all due respect, don't lump me in with that crowd.

Secondly, it seems as if some of us aren't allowed to be constuctively critical and are labelled in some derogatory fashion if we are. Why? I've been polite and see no reason for impolite reponses.

Lastly, If I feel Vettel is being left unchalleged for the 2011 WDC by a McLaren team that seems to be too worried about hurting Jenson's feelings, then I should be allowed to say so and illustrate it using concrete examples (as I actually did do by using the Chinese and Monaco GPs of this year as those examples.)

It's fine if some of the members here want McLaren to not fully back Hamilton...but then don't go crying when Vettel increases his choke-hold on the 2011 WDC.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my OP. It seems as if i've come across as some mindless Hammy FanBoi when my only intent was to suggest that McLaren channel it's efforts towards the only driver capable of truly worrying Vettel this year. My own opinion is that Button is NOT that driver.

You look at what happened at Monaco. Hamilton, following Q1 and Q2, looked like he could win the race and cut Vettel's points lead by 8. Instead, McLaren decided not to match their early Q3 banker run they did with Button for Hamilton ... and the net result is Vettel extending his points lead over Hamilton by 17. That's a 25 point swing against expectations.

So when Vettel beats Hamilton to this year's title by less than 25 points, don't come crying here wondering how Lewis or McLaren messed it up.

Knowing what McLaren are, i'm baffled by peoples' suggestions on here that their group only cares about the WCC, i.e. only half of the available championships in any given season. I doubt if McLaren themselves share in that thinking...but I could be totally wrong.

Cheers.

Theres a flaw in all of this Ray...At this stage last season - after 6 GPs - Button had 70 points and 2 wins whilst Hamilton had 59 points and no wins. Did you think then that Mclaren were 'diluting' their championship challenge by not making Button number 1 driver?

No because it was a tight championship and no other driver was running away with it. Not all seasons are exactly the same, my friend. This season's championship after 6 events is TOTALLY different to last season's championship after the same number of events. Not even close.

Further, Button's wins were a result of 50/50 calls in variable weather races (i.e. an element of luck) and not as a result of him being the out-and-out fastest driver on the grid.

I don't think Button can beat Hamilton over a season given the same equipment and treatment. Heck, last year Lewis was given the more falable equipment - more luck of the draw than anything - yet he still beat Jenson over the season.

 

[TN23]

First of all, Rick, you seem to have mistaken me for some common 606 Hamilton FanBoi..............Cheers.

Bit strong!

 

[FB]

Let's try and keep it nice folks. Many hold strong opinions and strong allegiances to different cars and drivers but there is no need for this to cause any friction.

Thanks

FB

 

[chris1981]

I guess the interesting thing about us humans is that we all enjoy different aspects of the sport. For some people having their driver/team winning is all that is important, for others its the way they go about performing.

Likewise if a persons favourite team/driver does win there has to be someone/something to blame. For others its simply a case of "someone else was better".

I guess I look at things that if someone is of a different opinion then its because they have a different view, its not because they are wrong.

 

[Slyboogy]

Ray...

You could easily say Button is as close to Hamilton this year as Hamilton was as close to Button last year...

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Sly, I have a different view.

Not only is Hamilton mainting his pace advantage over Button...but Hamilton seems to have become a better thinker than he was at this stage last year. An illustration is his learning curve between Malaysia and China this year. He flat-spotted a set of Options in Malaysian Qually this year and paid for it dearly in the race. What did he do the following weekend? He saved an extra set of Options during Chinese Qually and sacrificed Pole...then blitzed everyone in the race thanks to his decision.

Hamilton's upped the non-pace-related side of his motor racing over the last 12 months whereas Jenson seems to be flatlining. It's what's to be expected from a younger driver going from season 4 to season 5 in relation to an older driver going from season 11 to season 12. Button's approaching the twilight of his career while Hamilton is still on a learning curve. Hamilton's got more to give in the coming years and is only happy when he wins a Grand Prix...whereas Jenson hasn't got that much more to give and seems happy when he finishes ahead of Lewis in a Grand Prix, whether it's for 2nd or 4th. That's a huge difference in my opinion. That's the difference between an All Time Great in the making and a very good driver. Cheers.

 

[The Pits]

Ray, tbh, I have no issues with opinions at all, providing they are expressed as such, and I would like to believe that any challenge I make is fair, I cannot fully claim to be unbiased, but respectful, where due.

As for the McLaren situation, I repeat my assertions that:

1. Lewis Hamilton, where hindered, has been due to poor strategy from the team, rather than the team focussing on Jenson over Lewis. The example of not getting a banker lap in at Monaco is alluding to poor strategy, nothing else.

2. The wcc makes the teams a lot of money. Ferrari are less worried about this as they get a significant payment from FOM due to them being ferrari, as such they have less to lose than other teams. My opinion is that, if on the way to the wcc the team can also win the wdc, so much the better, or if the wcc is npt possible, but the wdc is, then great, however, from a financial point of view, it makes sense to aim as high in the wcc as possible, this, I would hazard, also includes sponsorship and prestige as a result of the wdc.

3. I do not believe that Lewis would have benefited from this approach in 2010, nor this year, whereas the ream benefit from having 2 drivers who are both motivated. Important to note here, that they need to ensure that BOTH drivers are well motivated, this means providing a strong car, and race winning strategies, which is a point which has been done many times, and I am sure will be done many more.

It is interesting to note, that McLaren lean spell in the 2000's was also during Adrian neweys tenure, and I am sure someone will correct me if wrong, but the main issues were relating to unreliable Mercedes engines, rather than driver policy.

In short (lol!) I think McLaren are more likely to win the wdc if they improve car and strategy. As you have said, Lewis will, in most races finish ahead anyway, so it seems almost a moot point wrt to team mate assistance. In fact, a team mate who can finish just behind you is probably the best way to maximize your own results.

 

[Slyboogy]

Sly, I have a different view.

Not only is Hamilton mainting his pace advantage over Button...but Hamilton seems to have become a better thinker than he was at this stage last year. An illustration is his learning curve between Malaysia and China this year. He flat-spotted a set of Options in Malaysian Qually this year and paid for it dearly in the race. What did he do the following weekend? He saved an extra set of Options during Chinese Qually and sacrificed Pole...then blitzed everyone in the race thanks to his decision.

And the next race he flat spots his tyres rather than saving them and going back to the same old...

It's just his luck right now, it balances out during the season, although some more than others, but there will be times when they will fluff up Button's stops while Hamiltons will be perfect.

Also, as McLaren want the WCC as much as the WDC, would they really back one driver? Doing this will de-motivate the other driver big time like we saw with Massa in 2010 prior to that race he was showing a bit of form, and it will also hinder their chances for both titles.

 

[Hamberg]

You know they probably could enhance one drivers efforts by focusing on one, namely to get the other to act on their behalf during the race (which in itself poses problems) but to do so means they would never have got a driver of Button's calibre.

Apart from some ridiculous sponsorship deal surely the WCC is far more important to the team, in which case Button is vital to keeping the points rolling in when Hamilton has his inevitable off.'s. And if Hamilton has enough DNF's then there is nothing to say Button can't creep ahead of him. Keke (driver not well respected CTA member) proved consistency and relatively high points finishes is oh so important.

I think on track Hamilton is the better driver. I'd also dispute that he is 'incapable' of making strategic decisions but whether he is as good as Button, Schumacher or Alonso at this particular skill is debatable and I would think unlikely given he is much more spontaneous. I'm sorry that is evident in his driving style, which I wouldn't change for the world. He did show he could do this in China though, but I would like to see more of it.

Anyway I digress so apologies. If McLaren start to back one driver then that driver is not able to win it on his own merit and that driver I'm afraid will forever have a tainted championship. So no they aren't diluting it, they are doing it fair and square until the mathematics kick in and even then I wonder if we'll see obvious team orders.

 

[sportsman]

McLaren definitely want the WCC.Google McLaren F1 and you get this.
http://mclaren.com/

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

It's an interesting theory. That McLaren want the WCC primarily and, as a result, want to keep both drivers "motivated".

The theory only bears fruit if one driver thinks he can be WDC somewhere else.

If I were Lewis looking at this thread (i'm sure he has other things to do than come on here to CTA (possibly) ) then i'd be wondering if I were better off at a team that won't dilute their efforts between me and the slower driver.

I'm pretty sure Lewis thinks he's the faster and stronger McLaren driver. I'm also pretty sure that Jenson's resigned himself to the idea that he will never be as fast as Lewis and the only way to beat him in a race is to go an alternative strategy route...or have a lottery scenario with weather/Safety Cars...or have Lewis' qually go completely off the rails.