Alonso above Hamilton in Autocourse 2011!?

[racecub]

Since Hamilton qualified above Button nearly every time I don't see how that can show that the strategy given to Hamilton was worse than that given to Button. McLaren messed up a couple of qualifying sessions but then so did everyone else, with the possible exception of Red Bull. It is also noticeable that Hamilton outqualified Alonso most of the time as well. I just do not understand why you are saying that Hamilton was given a poor qualifying strategy.

Because the times he did badly and was around Massa (the few times he qualified below button) were due to cock ups, or bad strategy, call them what you will. Not fuelling him, sending him out too late, sending him out on the wrong tyres, sending him out when he didnt need to go out and ruining his tyres, those sort of things. Quite a lot of those sort of things.In fact its amazing he managed to outqualify Button as much as he did given the screw ups. Imagine the end result had he not had all those problems in quali.

 

[Bill Boddy]

Hamilton did have problems in qualifying. Being in the second fastest car you would expect him to be no lower than 4th on the grid. There were indeed a number of occasions when he was out of the top 4.

Monaco 9th
Canada 5th
GB 10th
India 5th (but this was due to a 3 position penalty for ignoring a yellow flag).

In the above races Alonso started above Hamilton on the grid and finished above him in the race, except for Canad when neither of them finished. I would go through and make a list of the races where Alonso finished in front of Hamilton having started behind him but tbh I can't be bothered. It will be interesting to see your reply but I doubt that I will respond. If Hamilton's word that he had a poor season is not good enough then I withdraw.

 

[Pacific Ocean Blue]

"If Hamilton was better than Alonso whilst having a faster car why did he finish behind him in the WDC? "

The Ferrari was a SUPERB car IN THE RACE!

Hamilton certainly had a bad season, considering his stellar talent but the Ferrari was the better car in the race as lap times proved.
For example, Australia, Hamilton's fastest lap 1m 30.314, Alonso 1m 29.487, nearly a SECOND quicker, that is massive.

But.... Hamilton finished second, Alonso 4th.

Speed doesn't tell you everything.

Had Hamilton been in a Ferrari I am confident he would have had more than one win, and not from FIA manipulation, either.

 

[Incubus]

To suggest the Ferrari was a superb car in race conditions is frankly laughable considering the immediate and disastrous effect on lap times whenever the time for either Ferrari driver came to switch to hard or medium tyres...

 

[tooncheese]

The Ferrari was a SUPERB car IN THE RACE!

Was it really? It could generally match the McLaren on the Soft tyres, but was hopeless on the harder compound, hence Button passed Alonso on the Prime tyre stint at Belguim, Italy and Brazil. You mentioned Australia, where at the end of the race (where fastest laps are almost always set) Hamilton's floor was damaged, and had no hope of catching Vettel, but had a buffer back to Petrov. Meanwhile Alonso was trying to chase down Petrov in with a fully functional car and the small hope of a podium finish.

Don't forget Massa, who is by no means a slow driver, he beat a McLaren driver fairly just once (Button at Valencia).

It was a good car in the race on the Option Tyre, able to equal and possibly better at some races than the McLaren at some races. It was so much worse on the Prime tyre though, and to be a good race car it has to be good for all 305km. The Red Bull on the other hand, that was a superb car for the entire race.

 

[racecub]

Hamilton did have problems in qualifying. Being in the second fastest car you would expect him to be no lower than 4th on the grid. There were indeed a number of occasions when he was out of the top 4.

Monaco 9th
Canada 5th
GB 10th
India 5th (but this was due to a 3 position penalty for ignoring a yellow flag).

In the above races Alonso started above Hamilton on the grid and finished above him in the race, except for Canad when neither of them finished. I would go through and make a list of the races where Alonso finished in front of Hamilton having started behind him but tbh I can't be bothered. It will be interesting to see your reply but I doubt that I will respond. If Hamilton's word that he had a poor season is not good enough then I withdraw.

Well to start with Ive never said anything other than the fact Lewis had a bad season. It was a nightmare!
And I think it was pivotal on two things. Messed-up qualifying due to bad strategies and mistakes. And Canada.Had Button not taken Lewis off Im pretty sure lewis would have won. Hes great round there and was faster than Button. Im not saying Button would ever do that on purpse but I bet he was damn glad it happenned. If that incident alone had resulrted in Button going out and lewis carrying on then Lewis would have been 2nd in the championship and Jenson 5th, even with all the quali screw-ups If's and buts I know.

 

[teabagyokel]

Mathematically, Lewis would not have overtaken Alonso and Webber if he had won in Canada.

 

[no-FIAt-please]

Completely agree with Slyboogy about 2007 and 2010 being Hamilton's best seasons (it was in another thread).

People commend Alonso for being only 4 points from the title in 2010, while the Ferrari had very similar speed to the McLaren and only lost 1 point due to reliability. Yet Hamilton is said to have driven worse than Alonso in 2010, but was robbed of 32 points due to reliability during 2010. Also factor in Hamilton made 3 mistakes I can recall during that season (Monza, Singapore and Yeongam SC restart) while Alonso made numerous such as the starting grid in China, Monaco P3 crash, 2 lapses in situational awareness in Canada that probably cost him the win and not relinquishing the position back to Kubica at Silverstone (I didn't thoroughly check so I probably missed some mistakes for both).

In 2007 they both finished on equal points (Hamilton was placed higher due to 2nd place countback) and had an equal amount (4) of wins. However how experienced Alonso was in F1 should have some weight in relation to it being Hamilton's rookie season, and how they conducted themselves varied also, Alonso waving his arms at the pitwall at Indianapolis and being caught in in Spygate tainted his seaosn somewhat while Hamilton was found of no wrongdoing and had rookie season most can only dream of.

With Hamilton I think he has only had one season where he can performed sub-par, 2011. This post was about how Hamilton is 'rated' in F1, I chose Alonso as comparison because he is often referred to as the best or most complete driver on the grid (not because I want an Alonso/Hamilton thread). I think in all seasons (2007-2011) except 2011 it would be difficult to believe that Alonso could have done a better job than Hamilton in the same machinery, but he is still rated by many as being the better driver. I personally think they are different people and different drivers but as an overall package they are very closely matched (as was shown in 2007).

I just hope McLaren's MP4-27 is championship-challenging material and that Hamilton can capitalise on this, otherwise he might
end up like Alonso winning a title and then be 5 seasons down the line and have nothing to show for it.

 

[landogeorgelewis1]

For me Alonso massively OUT PERFORMED that Ferrari. He was miles ahead of Massa in the Drivers Championship. He really didn't have the car to muscle in amongst the Mclaren and Red Bulls, yet his never give up attitude was seen for the most of the season bar Korea.
I think anyone in their right minds would put Alonso ahead of Hamilton judging on their 2011 performances .

 

[no-FIAt-please]

Oops I also think that Alonso was brilliant in 2011 and should be placed in front of Hamilton for that season, however I was saying that the overall judgement of Hamilton to Alonso was unfair previously. But in 2011 Alonso was way better than Hamilton 'for sure'.

 

[Incubus]

, yet his never give up attitude was seen for the most of the season bar Korea.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Hammy, are you sure you don't mean China rather than Korea, where only Hamilton's best performance of the season stood between him and victory?

 

[Slyboogy]

"I give up! I give up!" - on this thread!

 

[Incubus]

Ah no, sorry. It was me what was wrong, mistook Korea for Singapore. Got myself in a bit of a noodle here. Well spotted, Sly.

 

[racecub]

Mathematically, Lewis would not have overtaken Alonso and Webber if he had won in Canada.

You are right. I stand corrected. Maths has never been my strong point. I was thinking Button and Lewis would just reverse places 25 points gain to one 25points loss to the other. But it aint that simple is it

 

[MCLS]

The Ferrari was not a good car, it was quite obvious that it feel to pieces (in terms of pace) whenever a set of hard tyres went anywhere near it. I think even people who don't watch F1 would say that he outperformed Massa, but then, most drivers on the grid would do that if they had the same car as poor Felipe, but Alonso certainly dragged that car kicking and screaming to places it shouldn't have been near, it was certainly the third fastest car, and Alonso made a lot less mistakes than Hamilton, and despite having 2 less race wins, still finished higher in the championship which shows a higher level of consistency throughout the season.

 

[Boyle]

Christ, are people still going on about this?

 

[Pacific Ocean Blue]

To be honest, as both McLaren drivers had better wins than the rest of the field, I am actually inclined to make make Button number one and Hamilton number two.
However, Webber's performance puts Vettels into a sharper focus and makes him the assured number one for 2011.

As for the Ferrari being so poor on hard tyres, the simple answer, which I believe Ferrari rumbled quite early in the season, was to use the hard tyres less.

I fully understand this comment from Bill Boddy...

"If Hamilton's word that he had a poor season is not good enough then I withdraw. "


As I equally understand this comment from Fernando Alonso.....

"Hamilton did not have a super season this year, who knows whether it was due to the Pirelli tyres or the fact that with blown diffusers now driving has changed," he explained.
"On top of that, [Hamilton's team-mate Jenson] Button is having a great year. All of this concurred to give the impression that his season hasn't been so good.
"But let's consider India, when he took second place in qualifying. It's like soccer: if Real Madrid or Barcelona are not performing particularly well on a given season, that does not mean that they're not top league.
"In fact, at the next winter testing he [Hamilton] will be the only one I'll be watching closely. The other guys can win if they've got the best car; he's the one who's able to clinch a championship with a car that's not the best."

 

[teabagyokel]

You are right. I stand corrected. Maths has never been my strong point. I was thinking Button and Lewis would just reverse places 25 points gain to one 25points loss to the other. But it aint that simple is it

They would for Canada, but Lewis finished 30/31 points behind Alonso and Webber respectively.

 

[F1ang-o]

Christ, are people still going on about this?

They are....& he's been dead for nearly 2,000 years.

 

[Mephistopheles]

No I can't be bothered to get involved in this discussion as these disagreements generally just go round and round in circles and are ultimately pointless leaving all involved with a thumping headache and sucking on a mouthful rennie's

Hamilton had a poor season and even he has said it was his own fault I'm sure he will do better this year...