Alonso above Hamilton in Autocourse 2011!?

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Pacific Ocean Blue

Test Driver
Vettel
Button
Hamilton
Rosberg
Schumacher
Alonso
Webber
Massa

That's my top ten.

It doesn't follow that ten drivers deserve a rating every year.

Hamilton should be above Alonso IMO, the only race Alonso swung was one where, mysteriously, the rules were changed for ONE WEEKEND!!!!!!

Well, this is "run" by the FIA.

To consider the wins Hamilton had, which were won when Ferrari wern't so "competative" as they were at Silverstone, Hamiltons wins were slightly shaded by Button.
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Contributor
Hamilton had a faster car for all races but one, that one being where the teams had to obey the rules as set out by the FIA.

If Hamilton was better than Alonso whilst having a faster car why did he finish behind him in the WDC?
 

racecub

Champion Elect
Hamilton had a faster car for all races but one, that one being where the teams had to obey the rules as set out by the FIA.

If Hamilton was better than Alonso whilst having a faster car why did he finish behind him in the WDC?
Because Alonso had no competition from his team mate.......and the car wasnt always faster.
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Contributor
Strangely I can only see three occasions when Button finished between Alonso and Hamilton. If you remove Button from the listings you will see that it helps Alonso once and Hamilton twice.

No, the McLaren wasn't always faster than the Ferrari but it was most of the time.
 

Slyboogy

World Champion
Contributor
Because Alonso had no competition from his team mate.......and the car wasnt always faster.

Don't see how that degrades his season when he mixed it up with both McLarens and a Red Bull in 95% in the races or so.

Fair enough if it was just a battle between him and Massa...but it wasn't.
 

racecub

Champion Elect
Don't see how that degrades his season when he mixed it up with both McLarens and a Red Bull in 95% in the races or so.

Fair enough if it was just a battle between him and Massa...but it wasn't.

No, it doesnt degrade his season, but it makes him look better and finishes him higher up the ladder. It also means he's always on the optimum strategy and gets gifted places.
 

Incubus

Champion Elect
No, it doesnt degrade his season, but it makes him look better and finishes him higher up the ladder. It also means he's always on the optimum strategy and gets gifted places.
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Optimum strategy, are you serious?
Ferrari have been noted in the past few years for consistently getting their strategies wrong...
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
If the Ferrari was the third best car, and it was, its natural position was 5th.

Amount of times Alonso finished better than 5th: 14
Amount of times Massa finished better than 5th: 0

Alonso outperformed his car.
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Contributor
If the Ferrari was the third best car, and it was, its natural position was 5th.

Amount of times Alonso finished better than 5th: 14
Amount of times Massa finished better than 5th: 0

Alonso outperformed his car.

To be fair Alonso had a lot of help from Hamilton who kept messing around in places that he should not have been, e.g. following Massa in Singapore. Sp Alonso should really have had a good number of fourth places.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
To be fair Alonso had a lot of help from Hamilton who kept messing around in places that he should not have been, e.g. following Massa in Singapore. Sp Alonso should really have had a good number of fourth places.

But he only had 4 fourth places, compared with 10 podiums. So he beat them all occasionally (the reds show Alonso finished ahead):

TBY.jpg


He outperformed the car.
 

racecub

Champion Elect
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Optimum strategy, are you serious?
Ferrari have been noted in the past few years for consistently getting their strategies wrong...
Optimum strategy over team mate. Alonso gets the pick. If he picks wrong, well thats the fault of himself and his strategist.
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Contributor
Optimum strategy over team mate. Alonso gets the pick. If he picks wrong, well thats the fault of himself and his strategist.

The McLaren drivers were on equal strategies up to the first tyre stops. Then the one who was the foremost of the two had the first stop. Since Hamilton outqualified Button almost the whole time he should have been the one who got the advantage of the first stop. When he didn't he was underperforming.

But the thing that really convinces me is that at the end of the season he admitted that he had underperformed. So unless anyone else can convince me that they know better than he I will take Hamilton's word for it.
 

racecub

Champion Elect
The McLaren drivers were on equal strategies up to the first tyre stops. Then the one who was the foremost of the two had the first stop. Since Hamilton outqualified Button almost the whole time he should have been the one who got the advantage of the first stop. When he didn't he was underperforming.

But the thing that really convinces me is that at the end of the season he admitted that he had underperformed. So unless anyone else can convince me that they know better than he I will take Hamilton's word for it.

I was talking about quali strategy not race strategy.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
Alonso outperformed the car. He beat Red Bulls and McLarens 29 times not including his win in Britain (with the one-off rules). The Ferrari was not as fast as those two teams.

Though it seems inadmissable as evidence, he blew Massa into the weeds. He did not need to have Massa pulled over at any point either, he overtook him legitimately on several occasions. But he outperformed the car.

Has he done it in the past? Yes. The 2005 and 2006 Renaults saw Championships despite being second fastest. The 2008 Renault saw a legitimate race win and a whole lot of (probably more impressive) 4th places and a genuine podium at Interlagos despite not being in the class of the BMWs or the McLarens and Ferraris, and only competitive with Toyota and RBR. The 2010 Ferrari was far further from Championship pace than 4 points. Alonso outperformed these cars.

Alonso outperformed the car. The only debate against that is utterly semantic and frankly not worth having. Alonso is a great driver. Not accepting the latter statement screams of myopic judgement.
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Contributor
I was talking about quali strategy not race strategy.

Since Hamilton qualified above Button nearly every time I don't see how that can show that the strategy given to Hamilton was worse than that given to Button. McLaren messed up a couple of qualifying sessions but then so did everyone else, with the possible exception of Red Bull. It is also noticeable that Hamilton outqualified Alonso most of the time as well. I just do not understand why you are saying that Hamilton was given a poor qualifying strategy.
 
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