Current Alfa Romeo Racing (formerly Sauber)

RasputinLives

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With Racing Point looking likely to be Merc B-team that technically means we're down to 7 teams on the grid. I'm sure Renault will follow suit at somepoint as well. That will leave Haas, McLaren and Williams as the only independents. Both the last two are struggling and Haas are only doing alright because they are in bed with Ferrari.
 

Izumi

Points Scorer
With Racing Point looking likely to be Merc B-team that technically means we're down to 7 teams on the grid. I'm sure Renault will follow suit at somepoint as well. That will leave Haas, McLaren and Williams as the only independents. Both the last two are struggling and Haas are only doing alright because they are in bed with Ferrari.
May I offer a different interpretation why Haas is performing well? Here it goes:
1. They are power-plant customer of Ferrari. (Undisputed fact.)
2. Being in bed with Ferrari is one way to put it, but then there are many more of such arrangements in current F1. Depth and complexities of such relationships is not public, thus open often to subjective interpretations. (Again, undisputed fact.)

Perhaps Haas + Ferrari exemplifies functional relationship between supplier and customer, thus negating rather loud arguments (excuses) that customers can never win a race, that is, implying that it is an engine which is holding them back. Force India is another example of such good relationship between supplier and customer. Those two cases suggest, that Williams and McLaren have to perhaps dig deep and look more inwardly in search of "better me". It is my opinion if Haas or Force India aren't winning races, core reasons for it is something else than the engine.
 
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RasputinLives

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Contributor
You are missing the point Izumi - yes the Haas is doing well because of its relationship with Ferrari but if they ever get anywhere near beating Ferrari that relationship will end very quickly.

We had a very competitive Force India team last season......but Ocon still had to jump on the brakes and get out of Hamilton's way.

If all the other teams on the grid are owned or propped up by the top 4 teams it means only the top 4 teams can win ever - I only include Renault in this out of courtesy. That's called a Monopoly not a sport.
 

Dartman

Points Scorer
Ocon would not have needed to stamp on the brakes and get out of Hamilton's way if he was quicker than Hamilton, but he wasn't so he was obliged to, we haven't yet reached the point where this has been the case with the engine manufacturers except for Red Bull and Renault where Renault tends to get out of a Red Bull's way or did:whistle:
 

RasputinLives

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Contributor
Dartman ok let's get into this one shall we. Ocon did stamp on the brakes and get out of Hamiltons way at Monoco and Hamilton was quicker it's very true. Of course you are forgetting that Hamilton had made a pitstop so would be quicker....and that Ocon had been told in pit lane prior that Merc were going to be on a startegy where Hamilton would be behind him and that it would only work if he let him go past - so he was ordered to do so. Basically Merc fixed an entire race result by having power over another team.

Also I'm very interested to hear you say that Ocon was obliged to get out of Hamilton's way because he wasn't quicker than him. As he was not his team mate I'm guessing you are if the belief that if a car behind you is quicker that you must let him past? I remind you this was Monaco and there is no way Hamilton would have got by without assistance.
 

Angel

🧸 Smile, it might never happen.
Contributor
So Ferrari have two B teams, Haas and Alfa Romeo. Mercedes have Racing point, Red Bull obviously has Toro Rosso. Renault are no longer tied to Red Bull but McLaren are using their engines so does that make them the Renault B Team? Also aren't Williams supplied by Mercedes too, so are they not a Mercedes B team as a result? In which case we don't have any independent teams as such as they're all connected to one another by some form or another.

Or is there a lot more to these tie ups than just engines/gear boxes etc. that I'm missing?

gethinceri I mentioned Alfa Romeo ;)
 

RasputinLives

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Contributor
McLaren (like Red Bull before them) don't have the technical ties ups with Renault like Alfa do with Ferrari (and the others do) so you could probably call then independent. Although you only have to look at what happened to Torro Rosso at the end of 2017 to see what Renault do to their engine customers when they are in close competition in the constructors championship with them.
 

Izumi

Points Scorer
Alfa Romeo (Fiat) and Ferrari are two separate business entities for some time now. I would be hesitant to claim that beyond supply of power plant they have some additional and unique influence over Swiss team. Most intertwined teams on the grid seems to be just RB boys.
 

RasputinLives

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Contributor
If you honestly believe that (and your not just saying it for the sake of an argument) the I think you're being very naive. The whole team is clearly being set up as a Ferrari B-team right through the driver line up to the gearbox and design. They are even openly saying it in the press.
 

BradMan

Rookie
If you honestly believe that (and your not just saying it for the sake of an argument) the I think you're being very naive. The whole team is clearly being set up as a Ferrari B-team right through the driver line up to the gearbox and design. They are even openly saying it in the press.
I think we can just speculate RL. I also believe they are 2 entities, as Izumi above state. Vastly different interest
 

RasputinLives

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Contributor
Ok. I believe that Red Bull and Torro Rosso are two separate entities too. Looking forward to that fight between Albon and Verstappen this season.
 

Izumi

Points Scorer
Ok. I believe that Red Bull and Torro Rosso are two separate entities too. Looking forward to that fight between Albon and Verstappen this season.
RB - TR = the same owner, one purse.
Ferrari - Fiat = two owners, and not necessarily the same business agenda, two different purses. Alfa Romeo label in F1 was brainchild of SM when he still was engaged in both businesses.
 

BradMan

Rookie
RB - TR = the same owner, one purse.
Ferrari - Fiat = two owners, and not necessarily the same business agenda, two different purses. Alfa Romeo label in F1 was brainchild of SM when he still was engaged in both businesses.
+1
Add to that the fact that TR drivers are specifically groomed as potential RBR drivers. History shows a very clear and distinct pattern. And we not talking managers here like Wolf, who will try and fit his drivers into ANY TEAM available
 

RasputinLives

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Contributor
Formula 1: Mercedes 'considering' B-team like Ferrari/Alfa Romeo - Toto Wolff

Does Haas worry about Ferrari’s B team?

https://www.quora.com/Will-Alfa-Romeos-return-to-F1-make-Sauber-officially-Ferraris-B-team-like-Red-Bull-and-Toro-Rosso

Awful lot of denial coming out from the Alfa boss but no one really believing them and most think it's a done thing.

As for ownership - Go back through companies house they are both ulitmately owned by same company.

I accept your position (and lovely to see you guys sticking up for each other but calm your boots no one is attacking anyone over here it ain't the wild west) and I guess we'll see how it pans out. I don't think for a second we'll ever see anyone driving that Alfa who is not a Ferrari academy driver or a Ferrari old boy.

But you boys seems pretty sure on it so maybe I'm wrong.
 

BradMan

Rookie
You read quora too..great stuff

Haas and Alfa both state they are NOT Ferrari's B-team. For teams wanting their independence that much says something. TR on the other hand... Practically told what and how to do, even as a Guinea pig in certain circumstances... Vettel, Alfonso, Kimi etc, all coming from rival teams... Name one driver that's straight from a rival team to RBR

As I said.... Alfa and Haas... Ferrar's B-team.... pure speculation, especially from a guy like Wolff
 
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