Grand Prix 2019 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
also something on Lewis being a very good driver in the wet. sunday was the 1st time since Australia 2010 nearly 9 & 1/2 yrs ago that hamilton finished outside of the top 4 & only 3rd times he had finished outside the podium
 

Ruslan

Points Scorer
This is a list of every Wet Race since 2007. with the winner & where Lewis came

Europe/germany 07 - Alonso - Lewis 9th

Japan 07 - Hamilton

China 07 - Raikkonen - Hamilton was leading before infamous DNF

Monaco 08 - Hamilton

British 08 - Hamilton

Belgium 08 - Massa - Hamilton 3rd but won on track

Italy 08 - Vettel - Hamilton 7th

China 08 - Hamilton

Brazil 08 Massa - Hamilton 5th (who could forget)

Malaysia 09 Button - Hamilton 7th

China 09 Vettel - Hamilton 6th

Australia 10 Button - Hamilton 6th

China 10 Button - Hamilton 2nd

Belgium 10 Hamilton

Korea 10 Alonso - Hamilton 2nd

Canada 11 Button - Hamilton DNF

Britain 11 Alonso - Hamilton 4th

Germany 11 Hamilton

hungary 11 Button - Hamilton 4th

Korea 11 Vettel - Hamilton 2nd

Malaysia 12 Alonso - Hamilton 3rd

Brazil 12 Button - Hamilton DNF from lead

Hungary 2014 - Riccardo - Lewis PL > 3rd
We should probably assemble yours and olegg stats into a separate thread called "Rainmasters" (so we can find them again)

Count of wins:

Hamilton: 6
Button: 6
Alonso: 4
Vettel: 3

Suspect you need to call Hamilton and Button both rainmasters. Vettel won a lot of races between 2010-2013, only one is in the rain.
 

RasputinLives

Not dead
Contributor
Button's debut win in 06 was in the wet too which makes him 7. I believe Hamilton has more than 6 though. He had 9 on olegg's list alone and that only went back to 2014.

Button's skill seemed to kick in when the race was going dry to wet or wet to dry. If you think he only had 15 wins in his career with 14 of them being squashed into 4 seasons then 7 wet wins is quite remarkable.
 

Ruslan

Points Scorer
I think that you're making a very good point, in my view the start of the race was beyond contempt, there wasn't all that water and they even broadcast the radio messages of drivers saying that the conditions were ok and that they should let them race. Sometimes I wonder if the tv production has an anti-F1 agenda or if it is full of masochists

Re F1 cars running on a wet track I think that more than not being designed for those condtions, which is partly true, the most astonishing point IMHO is that despite the fact that the FIA knows that you can't run a modern F1 on a wet track with a dry set up otherwise the car would be undrievable because the car sits too low on the ground and therefore a film of water builds up between the track surface and the bottom of the car (and the tyres become irrelevant), despite all this and despite the fact that this problem has been known for years and has caused many controversies, yet despite all of the above they still haven't changed the park ferme rules to allow the teams to increase the ground clearance of the cas and to let them reduce the front wings. I mean that doesn't look like rocket science, they could allow every team to increase the ground clearance of a set amount and let them decrease front wing at choice, all this could be done in a matter of a few minutes under the close supervision of the stewards and that wouldn't impact on the costs.

With the current aero bias wet races tend to be much more interesting than dry races, the fact that the powers that be refuse to let the cars be set up to run under wet conditions IMHO is utterly nonsensical

Other than that I don't agree with some drivers blaming the slippery surface on the outside of the Motodrom, if you exit the track it's your fault, paying a price for a mistake IMHO is a fair consequence, if similar conditions were available at other traks I believe that the racing would be better
This is a very interesting post. Thanks.

I gather the problem was created with the new qualifying format...where they forbid the cars to be modified or changed after qualifying. Lots of reasons for doing this, although I am still not sold on the new qualifying format. Also, good simple solution is provided to the problem: "...they could allow every team to increase the ground clearance of a set amount and let them decrease front wing at choice, all this could be done in a matter of a few minutes under the close supervision of the stewards and that wouldn't impact on the costs."

Have you considered writing a letter to Todt?
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
Button's debut win in 06 was in the wet too which makes him 7. I believe Hamilton has more than 6 though. He had 9 on olegg's list alone and that only went back to 2014.
yes i just filled in the rest of hamiltons career but when the F1 stat ran out

yes Button was good in rain but he really skill was & why i rank aus above canada was because his feel in changeable conditions was outstanding & his car control afterwards is probably the best F1 has seen. because he could do on dry tyres on wet track what other drivers couldn't. as well races werent their a few pole he got in similar circumstances Belgium 12?
 

Chasz

Points Scorer
Thanks for sparking the debate RasputinLives . It'd be good to see a Jenson Button focussed stats on wet races as opposed to a Hamilton focused.

I agree with you - JB was ahead of the rest in changeable weather conditions and LH seemed to have the edge in constant wet conditions.
 

olegg

Race Winner
In the Canadian race in 2011 that I saw Hamilton ran into the back of Button. The visibility was so poor Button would have not been able to see any car behind him.
What kind of "back" are you talking about if Button didn't even "slow" on that collision?
Another time to say, it is happened on the straight and Hamilton originally went to the left,
and Button sharply began to change the trajectory and actually hit Hamilton in the wall.
 

olegg

Race Winner
yes i just filled in the rest of hamiltons career but when the F1 stat ran out
yes Button was good in rain but he really skill was & why i rank aus above canada was because his feel in changeable conditions was outstanding & his car control afterwards is probably the best F1 has seen. because he could do on dry tyres on wet track what other drivers couldn't. as well races werent their a few pole he got in similar circumstances Belgium 12?
Yes, Button had striking contrasts.
On the one hand a few great races in which he shows determination and ability to anticipate changes in the situation in the race.
And on the other hand a large number of races in which he did not show himself at all,
ackting passively and without any willing of struggle.
 
We should probably assemble yours and olegg stats into a separate thread called "Rainmasters" (so we can find them again)

Count of wins:

Hamilton: 6
Button: 6
Alonso: 4
Vettel: 3

Suspect you need to call Hamilton and Button both rainmasters. Vettel won a lot of races between 2010-2013, only one is in the rain.
from this we could argue that a smart guy who, although probably not the very best in terms of pure driving but still very capable, with the ability to read the race and keep cool can win a lot of races in changing conditions. Other than that I'd say that in the wet the good drivers stand out, and in fact as the top scorers we have the top 3 drivers of the last decade (Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel). Having a balanced and easy car to drive is also important in the wet
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Premium Contributor
OK olegg, here is part of the report of the 2011 race from Wikipedia. Note that Wikipedia only reported what the stewards said.

The stewards did not impose a penalty on Button for his collisions with Hamilton and Alonso, having judged that no driver was to blame in either incident... Hamilton agreed with the stewards that Button did not intentionally collide with him, and although he felt he was alongside Button at the time, later reflected that "he probably hadn't spotted me"
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
olegg In review of all the British driver who become world champions who was best in the wet No 1 was Jenson Button ahead of Hamilton, Stewart, Mansell and Clark to name a few I do actually miss those races where more often than not Jenson seems to demonstrate his supreme skill
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
This is a very interesting post. Thanks.

I gather the problem was created with the new qualifying format...where they forbid the cars to be modified or changed after qualifying. Lots of reasons for doing this, although I am still not sold on the new qualifying format. Also, good simple solution is provided to the problem: "...they could allow every team to increase the ground clearance of a set amount and let them decrease front wing at choice, all this could be done in a matter of a few minutes under the close supervision of the stewards and that wouldn't impact on the costs."

Have you considered writing a letter to Todt?
I'm sure that Todt perfectly knows, the problem seems to be that they don't care which IMHO is actually more worrying than not having enough brainpower to understand things
is this qualifying a combo of 2 things ferrari dominance in 01 - 04 & tv figures they want viewers for full hr not last 10 mins. but i like the knockout qualifying i think they stumbled upon the best idea
 

olegg

Race Winner
OK olegg, here is part of the report of the 2011 race from Wikipedia. Note that Wikipedia only reported what the stewards said."
And you all that is written in Wikipedia perceive as the ultimate truth without
the reservations associated in this case with the interests of the team, internal team relationships, etc.?
See since 8th second.
Do you not believe your eyes?
 
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olegg

Race Winner
olegg In review of all the British driver who become world champions who was best in the wet No 1 was Jenson Button ahead of Hamilton, Stewart, Mansell and Clark to name a few I do actually miss those races where more often than not Jenson seems to demonstrate his supreme skill
So why, after a few seasons on the same team, Hamilton was ahead of Button in all aspects,
despite the greater number of technical problems and incidents at Hamilton and skill at Button?
 

Ruslan

Points Scorer
I'm sure that Todt perfectly knows, the problem seems to be that they don't care which IMHO is actually more worrying than not having enough brainpower to understand things
Well, I have never been sold on the current qualifying system. It seems contrived. But, I think making the cars drivable in the rain would be a good thing.
 

Bleu

Points Scorer
Button striked out as a driver who would not necessarily thrive in full-wet race but he was a real master of changing conditions. So last Sunday's weather was tailor-made weather for him.
 

RasputinLives

Not dead
Contributor
I agree Bleu no one really impressed me in changing conditions on Sunday. Hamilton knew they were switching to wrong tyres but let the team do it anyway and Verstappen was brave enough to insist the team switched him back to inters very quickly after putting him on slicks - which won him the race. Not much from anyone else.
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Premium Contributor
olegg what is on the Wikipedia quote is what was decided by the race stewards and also what Hamilton said later. If you disagree with these people I would recommend that you take up your grievances with them.

I am only pointing out what the officials and one of the two drivers who were in the incident said.
 
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