Grand Prix 2019 German Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

olegg

Race Winner
As for the penalty Hamilton got, DC felt it was unfair and said what else could he have done? He should have continued on and have gone round again then come in next lap is the simple answer. Sure he'd have lost a lot of time but if he'd done that his pit crew would have been ready for him and he wouldn't have got a penalty. That bollard rule is there for a reason, you can't decide some rules you will enforce and some you won't!
Yes... "should have continued " ...
and fill the track with fragments of carbon, thereby violating other rule....
However the penalty is fair.
Hamilton was just unlucky in this race.
And this began with unwise decisions of team
 
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Angel

Race Winner
Contributor
Did DC really think that was unfair? I watched the Sky coverage so managed to miss that gem. That's got to be an example of one of the clearest cut penalties I can think of!
Yeah DC said it was a stupid penalty, it was bollards ;)
He was a long way beyond the bollard when he pulled in, to me that made it a clear infringement and they were right to give him the penalty.

Yes... "should have continued " ...
and fill the track with fragments of carbon, thereby violating other rule....
However the penalty is fair.
Hamilton was just unlucky in this race.
And this began with unwise decisions of team
I take your point about the fragments of carbon on the track olegg, but they have to draw a line somewhere. Hamilton knew what he was doing when he cut across the grasss into the pits the way he did, he must have known or at least suspected they'd penalise him, and they did. Maybe he just decided the potential penalty was worth it, who knows?
 

olegg

Race Winner
Hamilton knew what he was doing when he cut across the grasss into the pits the way he did, he must have known or at least suspected they'd penalise him, and they did. Maybe he just decided the potential penalty was worth it, who knows?
But what was Vettel thinking when he was driving out of the grass crossing the track in front of Hamilton?
And how many disturbances from Vettel then after a fair penalty.... :)

Another times remark that i count that Hamilton was penalised afair.
 

Bill Boddy

Professional layabout
Contributor
Hamilton knew that he had broken the rule so he would be penalised. He also knew that the penalty would be less than it would cost him to go round 95% of the track

This makes a mokery of the penalty system. He should have got a penalty which would penalise him not a non-penalty which cost him nothing.
 

Ruslan

Podium Finisher
Why did Racing Point feel they had absolutely nothing to lose by taking a punt on slicks and having it pay off handsomely when Williams could have done the same and didn't??
Williams should have certainly put one their drivers on slicks. It is not like they have anything to loose.

But, Williams does seem to be in an extended management/confidence malaise.
 

Ruslan

Podium Finisher
If Kvyat isn't back in that Red Bull soon with Gasly demoted I'll be amazed, after that drive he deserves it I'd say.
Well, Helmut Marko just announced that the driver line-up was going to remain the same at Red Bull and Toro Rosso for the rest of 2019. So......

In the end, to do the switch, this would mean that Marko made two mistakes 1) promoting Gasly to Red Bull, and 2) dismissing Kvyat. At this point, the issue appears to be management ego. Maybe Red Bull should start by dismissing Marko. In 2017 Toro Rosso started the season with Sainz and Kvyat as their drivers. In 2018 they had Gasly and Brendon Hartley. Hartley also didn't work out too well. How many mistakes do you get to make as management?
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
Sounds like some of you should switch to watching demolition derby.

I for one can't stand races like this - it's not racing when half of it is spent behind the SC and the conditions are so bad that the cars have no grip, downforce, or heat in the tyres.

F1 cars aren't designed for those conditions, and it shows.
 

Angel

Race Winner
Contributor
In some ways I agree Brogan, the fact was it made a proper race of it as people were passing one another and you had no idea right until the end who was going to win. I personally didn't enjoy it for the cars flying off the track or whatever, I enjoyed the fact it wasn't a foregone conclusion from lap 1 like so many races of late have been.

Ruslan, sounds like my theory is wrong on Red Bull and Toro Rosso then.
 

rufus_mcdufus

Champion Elect
It seems to be so seldom that there have been wet races recently that I guess the novelty of it was one factor in why I enjoyed it.
They really did seem to be having some trouble, even when the track was looking pretty dry though. Are the tyres terrible, or perhaps a slippery surface due to the recent heat? Or are the drivers not very good in the rain at the moment? Some of them really seemed to be struggling *cough Gasly cough*.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff member
rufus_mcdufus it's due to tyre temperatures - as soon as the rain falls, the cars slow down and the tyres cool due to a combination of the lower speed and water.

Once that happens, the tyres are no longer in their operating window and grip disappears.

The lower speed also means reduced downforce, which again contributes to lower temperatures, less grip, etc.

It then becomes a vicious circle with no way back unless the track miraculously instantly dries.
 

rufus_mcdufus

Champion Elect
rufus_mcdufus it's due to tyre temperatures - as soon as the rain falls, the cars slow down and the tyres cool due to a combination of the lower speed and water.

Once that happens, the tyres are no longer in their operating window and grip disappears.

The lower speed also means reduced downforce, which again contributes to lower temperatures, less grip, etc.

It then becomes a vicious circle with no way back unless the track miraculously instantly dries.
You're right, but this time round it just seemed like amateur hour for some of the drivers.
 

The Artist.....

Champion Elect
Brogan - the advantage of the wet is that mistakes are genuinely punished - I hate the fact that cars can push and push and push, and if they make an error they lose nothing (and sometimes even gain time)...
 

RasputinLives

Doesn't look a bit like Jesus
Contributor
So the driver who was demoted from Red Bull because he wasn't up to the pace of Danny Ric is being touted as the man to return to Red Bull to replace a driver who isn't as quick as the driver who replaced the driver who is now being touted for promotion back to Red Bull.

I love the silly season.

Having said that, Gasly is shit.

Also, Honda are very much on an upwards curve in terms of power and reliability.

Renault on the other hand.... Oh dear.
The thing about Kvyat is that we all secretly know that he was demoted because they needed to get Verstappen in the seat. He was perfectly capable of keeping up with Ricciardo and had beat him on points in the season prior - which was just 5 races before he was dropped. He was on the podium in his second to last race with the team and got driver of the day.

The only issue I see with Verstappen/Kvyat is that about 1 race out of 10 Kvyat will out perform Max and beat him fair and square. On his good days. Where as Gasly will never beat Verstappen in a fair fight. Red Bull and Max may prefer the later
 
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Ruslan

Podium Finisher
Ruslan, sounds like my theory is wrong on Red Bull and Toro Rosso then.
Oh, I think your theory is correct....it is just that Helmut Marko doesn't think it is. Therefore, Gasly will continue to flail around and Kvyat, who has often shown some speed, will continue to wonder if he will be awarded for his performances. I guess we shall have to wait for 2020 to see what they do.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
Where as Gasly will never beat Verstappen in a fair fight. Red Bull and Max may prefer the later
I don't think that would be the case.

With Ferrari hell bent on throwing this season away, Red Bull against all expectations are proving to be the second best team on the grid. Imagine how much closer to Merc and Ferrari they would be with a much stronger number 2.

Gasly is going to cost Red Bull any hope of second in the constructors championship.
 

RasputinLives

Doesn't look a bit like Jesus
Contributor
I see what your saying cider_and_toast but the the counter argument is that Red Bull would not be challenging for 2nd in the constructors if they hadn't thrown all resources behind Max. If they were still doing the balancing act between Danny Ric and Max then the car set up would be different, car development would be different and they'd have been fighting between themselves so much on Sunday they would probably have both gone down the boating lake.

I'm not making excuses for Gasly but I heard Horner being asked questions during a race a few ago about what was going on and when he was asked how Gasly's race was going he paused like he didn't know who he was.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff member
Premium Contributor
I see what your saying about seeing what I'm saying about what your saying RasputinLives. I do believe that Red Bull could employ a stronger number 2 while still moving the team forward as a unit. Gasly has under performed with the opportunity he's been given and that has harmed RBR this season far more.
 
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