Things ... 2015 - 2016 Silly Season. The Drivers Market.
The contract was terminated by mutual agreement which means that he did not walk away or owe any money to McLaren.
The top management at Ferrari changed completely. Alonso was viewed as being one of Montezelemo's allies, the new management wanted Vettel in without paying Raikkonen again so were perfectly willing, indeed eager, for Alonso to leave.
With all due respect this borders on being rubbish. Do not forget that when Alonso was at Minardi Jean Todt approached him with a view to Alonso joining Ferrari; however Todt refused to buy out Alonso's contract so he turned down the offer. When most drivers receive an offer like that they grab it with both hands; Alonso did not because he would NOT break the contract.
Il_leone
World Champion
British drivers Will Stevens and Jolyon Palmer facing fight to secure Formula One future as seats fill up
Daniel Johnson is at it again apparently saying what we know already a few tweaks. No mention of Haas 2nd seat though so it is probably gone soon.
He has not bothered to mention Van Doorn for either Manor or Lotus seat. Nicely eliminating the options for either drive by 1 so does that mean Stoffel is Mclaren reserve driver then?
Daniel Johnson is at it again apparently saying what we know already a few tweaks. No mention of Haas 2nd seat though so it is probably gone soon.
He has not bothered to mention Van Doorn for either Manor or Lotus seat. Nicely eliminating the options for either drive by 1 so does that mean Stoffel is Mclaren reserve driver then?
No, it just shows that Daniel Johnson is wearing himself as a hat.
Jolyon Palmer confirmed for Lotus 2016.
Great news.
Great news.
Spendid yey 
Thoughts go out to Pastor. A number 2 driver to a rookie must be a tough gig.
His dad was better than many.
F1Brits_90
World Champion
congrats to Jolyon, its great to have 3rd brit on the grid at Lotus or Renault or both & also nice to finally see a gp2 champ get a chance 1st one since grosjean
Spinodontosaurus
Points Scorer
Pending Manor's line-up, Lotus' could well be the weakest one on the grid next season. Very underwhelming, especially if it is to be believed that Magnussen and Vergne were also candidates for the seat.
Also this is somewhat concerning for the teams future... the fact that Lotus have taken on Palmer highly suggests they are in need of funds, and lots of them. But if Renault really are taking over the team, surely Lotus wouldn't need those funds? Is the Renault deal falling through, or are Lotus merely in need of immediate funds to pay of debts while they wait for Renault to get the deal done?
Also this is somewhat concerning for the teams future... the fact that Lotus have taken on Palmer highly suggests they are in need of funds, and lots of them. But if Renault really are taking over the team, surely Lotus wouldn't need those funds? Is the Renault deal falling through, or are Lotus merely in need of immediate funds to pay of debts while they wait for Renault to get the deal done?
Spinodontosaurus Palmer doesn't come with big sponsorship. He does come with a GP2 title though unlike the other drivers you mentioned. A championship in a junior category is actually more than a few of the drivers in the field actually but I guess we've already establish you believe a driver doesn't win something straight away at the age of 5 then they are just not good enough.
I hadn't expected Palmer to get the nod on this one but its a welcome surprise as he did show in 2014 that he deserves to get a shot in F1. Judging on how Nasr has got on and how Palmer ripped him a new one I'm expecting him to go down well.
I hadn't expected Palmer to get the nod on this one but its a welcome surprise as he did show in 2014 that he deserves to get a shot in F1. Judging on how Nasr has got on and how Palmer ripped him a new one I'm expecting him to go down well.
Il_leone
World Champion
I think people forget Lotus have got two GP2 champions in their line up and Grosjean was a GP2 champion too. The only one to miss out was Valsecchi which I blame Lopes
Anyway its good news for Jolyon and does make sense seeing that Vergne and Magnussen have not raced in F1 for over a year whilst Vandoorne and Ocon are drivers the team is only going to develop for another team
It makes from a continuity point as well that the time invested in himself has been rewarded.
The other thing it does is put pressure on Pastor to deliver and
Anyway its good news for Jolyon and does make sense seeing that Vergne and Magnussen have not raced in F1 for over a year whilst Vandoorne and Ocon are drivers the team is only going to develop for another team
It makes from a continuity point as well that the time invested in himself has been rewarded.
The other thing it does is put pressure on Pastor to deliver and
Spinodontosaurus
Points Scorer
I assumed Palmer came with plenty of cash considering how loaded his father is, but regardless Maldonado also comes with a GP2 title but it hasn't prevented him from being one of the worst drivers on the grid. Unless Palmer massively over-performs relative to his junior career then he is going to be much the same as Maldonado, minus the crashes.
As for Nasr, Palmer and Nasr were in GP2 together for 3 seasons, 1 of them as actual team mates. But Palmer always had 1 extra year of GP2 experience and 4 years of extra car racing experience than Nasr did including 2 seasons of Formula 2, which is roughly equivalent to GP2, and a season of GP2 Asia. Despite this Nasr beat Palmer in 2012, as a rookie, and in 2013 as his team mate. It was only in 2014 that Palmer beat Nasr, but their differing levels of experience is not something that can just be ignored. Somewhat bizarrely if you total up both drivers' points over those 3 years they scored exactly the same amount - 473 each.
Neither Vergne or Magnussen ever entered GP2 so it's a bit unfair to hold that against them. They did both enter Formula Renault 3.5 though, which is roughly equivalent to GP2. Magnussen finished 7th in his rookie season and then won in his second. Clearly superior to Palmer (or Nasr for that matter).
Vergne made his debut in the final third of the 2010 FR 3.5 season. Despite only taking part in, well, a third of the total races he was classified 8th overall. Across the races he started Vergne actually scored the second most points of any driver, narrowly ahead of fellow rookie Ricciardo and just behind Estaban Guerrieri who was in his 11th year of car racing at the time.
Then in 2011, Vergne's first full season, he finished 2nd overall just behind the very impressive but more experienced Robert Wickens and ahead of Ricciardo (although Ricciardo missed 4 of the 17 races).
In summary:
Palmer: 28th, 19th (Asia series), 11th, 7th, 1st.
Nasr: 10th, 4th, 3rd.
Magnussen: 7th, 1st
Vergne: 8th (partial season), 2nd.
As for Nasr, Palmer and Nasr were in GP2 together for 3 seasons, 1 of them as actual team mates. But Palmer always had 1 extra year of GP2 experience and 4 years of extra car racing experience than Nasr did including 2 seasons of Formula 2, which is roughly equivalent to GP2, and a season of GP2 Asia. Despite this Nasr beat Palmer in 2012, as a rookie, and in 2013 as his team mate. It was only in 2014 that Palmer beat Nasr, but their differing levels of experience is not something that can just be ignored. Somewhat bizarrely if you total up both drivers' points over those 3 years they scored exactly the same amount - 473 each.
Neither Vergne or Magnussen ever entered GP2 so it's a bit unfair to hold that against them. They did both enter Formula Renault 3.5 though, which is roughly equivalent to GP2. Magnussen finished 7th in his rookie season and then won in his second. Clearly superior to Palmer (or Nasr for that matter).
Vergne made his debut in the final third of the 2010 FR 3.5 season. Despite only taking part in, well, a third of the total races he was classified 8th overall. Across the races he started Vergne actually scored the second most points of any driver, narrowly ahead of fellow rookie Ricciardo and just behind Estaban Guerrieri who was in his 11th year of car racing at the time.
Then in 2011, Vergne's first full season, he finished 2nd overall just behind the very impressive but more experienced Robert Wickens and ahead of Ricciardo (although Ricciardo missed 4 of the 17 races).
In summary:
Palmer: 28th, 19th (Asia series), 11th, 7th, 1st.
Nasr: 10th, 4th, 3rd.
Magnussen: 7th, 1st
Vergne: 8th (partial season), 2nd.
Just posted this on the Haas thread but this looks a sure thing now.
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Gene Haas interview on sky just confirmed they will announce their second driver on Friday at Mexico. He said you can probably figure out why. So that Perez then. Haas seems like a nice chap. Very straight forward.
Edit: Its Esteban Guitierez isn't it. Perez was confirmed at Force India.
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Gene Haas interview on sky just confirmed they will announce their second driver on Friday at Mexico. He said you can probably figure out why. So that Perez then. Haas seems like a nice chap. Very straight forward.
Edit: Its Esteban Guitierez isn't it. Perez was confirmed at Force India.
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I didn't read all of that. I think you've posted it before.
What your summary shows to me though is Palmer getting better every season until he becomes the champion which is pretty sure what you are suppose to do in a junior category. The idea is to develop not to be amazing straight away. Everyone learns at their own pace. I don't blame you for your view it is a common one encouraged by the media that unless someone has won everything in their first 3 months in a car then they can't possibly be a true talent or deserving of the F1 grid.
You are very good with the stats but did you actually watch Palmer race in 2014? If you did I don't understand how you failed to think he deserves a shot in F1. I hear your 'he had one more years experience argument' but to be honest thats just convenient. Lewis Hamilton has one more years experience in F1 than Sebastian Vettel which would mean, by your argument, that Hamilton beating Vettel is not an achievement but just something to be expect.
As for Pastor - Pastor crashes a lot, Pastor get involved in a lot of crashes with other drivers, Pastor does have millions of dollars behind him. One thing Pastor Maldonado is not though is slow. He is far quicker than 50% of the grid at least. He can only manage it for one lap at a time though.
What your summary shows to me though is Palmer getting better every season until he becomes the champion which is pretty sure what you are suppose to do in a junior category. The idea is to develop not to be amazing straight away. Everyone learns at their own pace. I don't blame you for your view it is a common one encouraged by the media that unless someone has won everything in their first 3 months in a car then they can't possibly be a true talent or deserving of the F1 grid.
You are very good with the stats but did you actually watch Palmer race in 2014? If you did I don't understand how you failed to think he deserves a shot in F1. I hear your 'he had one more years experience argument' but to be honest thats just convenient. Lewis Hamilton has one more years experience in F1 than Sebastian Vettel which would mean, by your argument, that Hamilton beating Vettel is not an achievement but just something to be expect.
As for Pastor - Pastor crashes a lot, Pastor get involved in a lot of crashes with other drivers, Pastor does have millions of dollars behind him. One thing Pastor Maldonado is not though is slow. He is far quicker than 50% of the grid at least. He can only manage it for one lap at a time though.
Il_leone
World Champion
Spinodontosaurus I know you don't rate Jolyon. The cash he suppose to bring is not that much seeing as it did not help the team getting locked out and deprived him of doing a practice session
As for the weakest driver line up .. well I thought Sauber have the weakest driver line up and given they need even more money and it costs each driver $15m + just to secure a seat and they made a right cock up signing 4 drivers all with legitimate contracts
I always thought that Jolyon knowing the team well would work in his favour which is more important in the current climate of F1
You keep comparing Nasr and Palmer in Gp2 . Yes Nasr beat him as teammates in 2013 but in 2014 Palmer moved teams and Nasr stayed with the same team. So surely with continuity Nasr should have been much more stronger whilst Palmer switched to Dams who the previous season was average with Marcus Ericsson only managing 6th in the championship
You mention his first season in Gp2 which he finished 28th with Arden who don't have a great record in GP2 apart with Heikki back in 2005
As for Pastor.. he's a proven fast driver when he does not crash and probably next season he might start being more responsible knowing his seat is under serious pressure after that.
As for Vergne and Magnussen - both are victims of being in the wrong place when it mattered most for their F1 career and not really of their own making
As for the weakest driver line up .. well I thought Sauber have the weakest driver line up and given they need even more money and it costs each driver $15m + just to secure a seat and they made a right cock up signing 4 drivers all with legitimate contracts
I always thought that Jolyon knowing the team well would work in his favour which is more important in the current climate of F1
You keep comparing Nasr and Palmer in Gp2 . Yes Nasr beat him as teammates in 2013 but in 2014 Palmer moved teams and Nasr stayed with the same team. So surely with continuity Nasr should have been much more stronger whilst Palmer switched to Dams who the previous season was average with Marcus Ericsson only managing 6th in the championship
You mention his first season in Gp2 which he finished 28th with Arden who don't have a great record in GP2 apart with Heikki back in 2005
As for Pastor.. he's a proven fast driver when he does not crash and probably next season he might start being more responsible knowing his seat is under serious pressure after that.
As for Vergne and Magnussen - both are victims of being in the wrong place when it mattered most for their F1 career and not really of their own making
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Spinodontosaurus
Points Scorer
^I compared Nasr to Palmer in response to RasputinLives doing so. And since Sauber are keeping the same driver line-up next year I would rate them higher than Lotus'. Ericsson is maybe on a par with Maldonado, but Nasr will presumably be a stronger driver than Palmer given what I rambled about in my previous post.
I also disagree that Maldonado is a proven fast driver. He has had 4 team mates in F1 and 3 of them have outqualified him; an ageing Barrichello miles past his peak, a rookie Bottas and most recently Grosjean who currently holds a 25-5 advantage over him. He has also been badly outscored by the same 3 team mates.
Drivers who take years to achieve any success in junior ranks do not fare well in F1, or more often than not they never make it F1 at all. Maldonado is simply a convenient and recent example of this, but he is by no means the only one.
I also disagree that Maldonado is a proven fast driver. He has had 4 team mates in F1 and 3 of them have outqualified him; an ageing Barrichello miles past his peak, a rookie Bottas and most recently Grosjean who currently holds a 25-5 advantage over him. He has also been badly outscored by the same 3 team mates.
Drivers who take years to achieve any success in junior ranks do not fare well in F1, or more often than not they never make it F1 at all. Maldonado is simply a convenient and recent example of this, but he is by no means the only one.
Il_leone
World Champion
Spinodontosaurus RasputinLives
Maldonado actually has started on pole and won a race might I add for Wiliams so he is no slouch and on that he actually held off Alonso and cost him the driver's championship. The trouble is he is a magnet for incidents and namely his arch nemesis and GP2 rival Perez
You seem to forget how badly Sauber have struggled and they don't have any resources to develop their car and they've finished behind Lotus last year and will most certainly will this year as well. Lotus will have Renault and extra money in the form of royalty payments no doubt and are sure to develop the car much faster and better than Sauber well.
The fact Lotus will have better car. Nasr should improve as he has outdriven Ericsson. I expect Maldonado to do a lot better now and Palmer has done enough to impress team Enstone with his ability to work with the team and use his experience
Palmer was a late developer and clearly his hard work is paying off. If you say he only got the drive because it was down to money .. I think you will find Nasr has been backed heavily by the bank of Brazil and other big Brazilian organisations and will probably end up driving for Williams
If you go with your last comment about drivers taken years to achieve any success don't do well in f1 the converse should be taken with a pinch of salt. Nigel Mansell might I add was considered nothing special
Maldonado actually has started on pole and won a race might I add for Wiliams so he is no slouch and on that he actually held off Alonso and cost him the driver's championship. The trouble is he is a magnet for incidents and namely his arch nemesis and GP2 rival Perez
You seem to forget how badly Sauber have struggled and they don't have any resources to develop their car and they've finished behind Lotus last year and will most certainly will this year as well. Lotus will have Renault and extra money in the form of royalty payments no doubt and are sure to develop the car much faster and better than Sauber well.
The fact Lotus will have better car. Nasr should improve as he has outdriven Ericsson. I expect Maldonado to do a lot better now and Palmer has done enough to impress team Enstone with his ability to work with the team and use his experience
Palmer was a late developer and clearly his hard work is paying off. If you say he only got the drive because it was down to money .. I think you will find Nasr has been backed heavily by the bank of Brazil and other big Brazilian organisations and will probably end up driving for Williams
If you go with your last comment about drivers taken years to achieve any success don't do well in f1 the converse should be taken with a pinch of salt. Nigel Mansell might I add was considered nothing special
Spinodontosaurus
Points Scorer
You can always find exceptions to the trend, there have been over 800 drivers throughout the sports history after all so finding some exceptions is not unexpected. If you want to argue that Palmer will be an exception like Mansell then by all means do so.
Yes, Maldonado won a race. Once. That is one good result in how many race starts now? Of course he has not had the car to win any other races, but the least he could do is beat his team mates, because they are the only drivers he can truly be compared to.
I also don't know why you think Maldonado will suddenly improve, Grosjean has been thrashing him for 2 seasons straight so if Maldonado had anything left to give he probably would have shown it by now.
I agree that Lotus will probably have the better car than Sauber, but that is besides the point if we are talking about driver talent. And while yes, Nasr comes with plenty of sponsorship, he was also quite good in the lower ranks.
Yes, Maldonado won a race. Once. That is one good result in how many race starts now? Of course he has not had the car to win any other races, but the least he could do is beat his team mates, because they are the only drivers he can truly be compared to.
I also don't know why you think Maldonado will suddenly improve, Grosjean has been thrashing him for 2 seasons straight so if Maldonado had anything left to give he probably would have shown it by now.
I agree that Lotus will probably have the better car than Sauber, but that is besides the point if we are talking about driver talent. And while yes, Nasr comes with plenty of sponsorship, he was also quite good in the lower ranks.
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