Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/
 
Well I'm just severely hacked off. I think McLaren strategy yet again failed and this week it was Hamilton's turn. I don't actually understand why Button is getting so much praise either, he left the track several times, was not as quick as Hamilton or Vettel in the wet, in fact from what I can see the strategists in Woking won him this race, all Jenson needed to do was keep the car going which again I will say is not racing, it's not what I want to see. I'm a bit tired of him being hailed as the master in these conditions when he just takes instruction. I don't blame him for saying no to queuing, any driver worth their salt would say no but lets not pretend this was some amazing strategy call. He won which was great but that win was not in the class that we've seen from the other three race winners this season.

McLaren think they are clever dicks when it feels 9 times out of ten they get it very wrong. That was a 1-2 down the drain and a shameful allowance of Vettel to extend his lead. Whitmarsh should not be so happy with this result.
 
The spin and the drive through didn't cost him the win though, all it did was ensure he would have no chance of catching Alonso but if he didn't spin he would have had half a chance.
 
Has anyone seen the interview with Button? He was told to come in for inters as well, but chose to ignore the team. I think the only conspiracy is the one about how much redbull are paying mclaren to ensure that vettel wins the wdc at a canter ;)
 
^^^ That sounds anti Button, it's not meant to be (in the cookin sense) I just don't understand. I clapped when he crossed the line. And despite the elation at finding a bar that shows F1 with the BBC commentary feed, I had to watch it in a room full of German Vettel fans. I still whooped and cheered (and got a genuine aaahhh! and pat on the back when Hamilton got his drive through and I put my head in my hands) but still.

What I can confirm from my German friend who I went to the bar with, is that they too cannot stand 'the Finger'! You're on your own FB.
 
I have to admit I am a little bemused.

The general feeling on this thread is quite negative, and it seems like many people are a somewhat disappointed that Jenson won.

Personally, I would have loved a 1-2 for McLaren, and personally I think for the championship I would rather have seen Lewis win, and certainly both of the cars to be ahead of Vettel, along with Alonso, Webber, Massa etc.

Also, how come it is acceptable for some drivers to make mistakes due to pushing too hard, yet some simply have it used as something to have a dig about?

Apologies for seeming negative, I'm not happy that Vettel has extended his lead, but I think after the last couple of races, this was well deserved by Jenson, and some people could do with taking some lessons in magnanimity and humility from Lewis.
 
I have to admit I am a little bemused.

The general feeling on this thread is quite negative, and it seems like many people are a somewhat disappointed that Jenson won.

Personally, I would have loved a 1-2 for McLaren, and personally I think for the championship I would rather have seen Lewis win, and certainly both of the cars to be ahead of Vettel, along with Alonso, Webber, Massa etc.

Also, how come it is acceptable for some drivers to make mistakes due to pushing too hard, yet some simply have it used as something to have a dig about?

Apologies for seeming negative, I'm not happy that Vettel has extended his lead, but I think after the last couple of races, this was well deserved by Jenson, and some people could do with taking some lessons in magnanimity and humility from Lewis.
:cheer::cheer::thumbsup:
 
As I said before, hindsight may be a beautiful thing but it solves nothing. What was needed was foresight, and this was lacking. Putting Hamilton on the super softs was extremely foolish and badly calculated. It was foreseeably wrong. It was an obvious error from the team. They messed up royally.

Strange how with the advantage of hindsight you seem to make this strategy failure so predictable.

Someone posted a link to comments from Paul Hembery yesterday
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/265491/pirelli-hamilton-could-four-stop-on-sunday/
where he suggested the Supersofts would last 12-14 laps (which they did for LH, 14-16 for JB/SV) and 25 laps for the Softs.

You claim it was 'forseeable', but don't actually explain how you came to this assertion; in none of their practice sessions did they do a long run on that duration. Admittedly, there didn't seem to be much degradation as judged by laptime.

However, I think their strategy made complete sense, accounting several factors:
1. the supersoft should be in the region of 0.5-0.8s quicker (this wasn't ultimately the case but couldn't be predicted.
2. Hamilton was harder on the tyres and doing 30 laps would have been a real stretch
3. 30 laps split in a ratio something like 12-14:18-16 would mean he was always on fresher tyres than those around him.
 
You've a fair point the Pits. It should have been a McLaren 1-2 today and although I'd have preferred Hamilton to be ahead for the reason you've stated, either way would have been great and I am also a great believer in consistency (I have to be as a Rosberg fan also). It was just so disappointing to see that great chance thrown away by the team (and driver it seems, I wasn't in the position to watch the post race analysis). But credit where credit is due and I have given Jenson it in the past. I don't believe that was a 'great' win, it was a good win but nothing more. I genuinely do not believe Whitmarsh should be happy with that result though. They were in the position to at least snatch the constructors.
 
I have to admit I am a little bemused.

The general feeling on this thread is quite negative, and it seems like many people are a somewhat disappointed that Jenson won.

Personally, I would have loved a 1-2 for McLaren, and personally I think for the championship I would rather have seen Lewis win, and certainly both of the cars to be ahead of Vettel, along with Alonso, Webber, Massa etc.

Also, how come it is acceptable for some drivers to make mistakes due to pushing too hard, yet some simply have it used as something to have a dig about?

Apologies for seeming negative, I'm not happy that Vettel has extended his lead, but I think after the last couple of races, this was well deserved by Jenson, and some people could do with taking some lessons in magnanimity and humility from Lewis.

I don't think anyone is disappointed that Jenson won. More disappointed that Lewis didn't given that he outraced both Vettel and his teammate who were the only other drivers that really put up a challenge.

Also, saying that Jenson deserved the win based on the last two races is a bit strange. I don't see what bearing the last two races have on today.

Anyway. Congrats to him. A deserved win through today's efforts. There was one guy that deserved it more though.
 
Hamberg, I agree about Whitmarsh to be honest, a 1-2 was on the cards, the McLarens were faster than the Bulls. To be honest, I am not sure on the reasoning for the 2 drivers to be split on strategy, however, I have also not seen the data that was used to make the calls, including rainfall, tyre wear, expected lap times etc. so it is a little harsh I feel to be casting aspersions, especially after Germany.

Talking of Rosberg, what happended? He is usually really good in these conditions (China 10 being a good example) but he seemed to end up a way back, not what I was expecting at all!
 
Also, saying that Jenson deserved the win based on the last two races is a bit strange. I don't see what bearing the last two races have on today.
.

I actually said

"but I think after the last couple of races, this was well deserved by Jenson,"

I simply meant that it was good to see him get to the end of this one and win, rather than his 2 previous non finishes.

The race win was deserved on it's own Merit.
 
Strange how with the advantage of hindsight you seem to make this strategy failure so predictable.

Someone posted a link to comments from Paul Hembery yesterday
http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/265491/pirelli-hamilton-could-four-stop-on-sunday/
where he suggested the Supersofts would last 12-14 laps (which they did for LH, 14-16 for JB/SV) and 25 laps for the Softs.

You claim it was 'forseeable', but don't actually explain how you came to this assertion; in none of their practice sessions did they do a long run on that duration. Admittedly, there didn't seem to be much degradation as judged by laptime.

However, I think their strategy made complete sense, accounting several factors:
1. the supersoft should be in the region of 0.5-0.8s quicker (this wasn't ultimately the case but couldn't be predicted.
2. Hamilton was harder on the tyres and doing 30 laps would have been a real stretch
3. 30 laps split in a ratio something like 12-14:18-16 would mean he was always on fresher tyres than those around him.

To say that my opinion is based on hindsight is extremely speculative and also incorrect.
 
I'm glad I'm not a Hamilton fan, actually, it must be emotionally exhausting!

It depends how you look at it. I am a fan of Hamilton’s supreme racing abilities and he never fails to put these skills on show, regardless of the race result. It’s frustrating that he didn’t win when he looked so dominant during the early part of the race but most drivers would’ve faded away into obscurity after the drive through. He didn’t but fought back to 4th and for me this is a major positive. I don’t understand all this uproar over his strategy. I think McLaren made the right call all things considered and the result wouldn’t have looked so bad if not for Vettel’s massive lead in the championship. Emotionally exhausting is watching a McLaren fail with launch control at the start or having blowouts 10metres from the finish line.
 
You claim the McLaren decision (s) were "extremely foolish and badly calculated" and "foreseeably wrong" and "an obvious error" and "messed up" with no justification that you have posted other than the end result.
If you have any reasons you thought this was wrong at the time, I'd be very interested.
 
More disappointed that Lewis didn't given that he outraced both Vettel and his teammate who were the only other drivers that really put up a challenge.
.
Obviously he didn't outrace either of them or Alonso as he finished behind them.

To be clear on my position in this, I would rather have seen a McLaren 1-2, but think there are some Lewis fans here who think anything that happens to him is someone elses fault and that he ca do no wrong. He broke the rules today and also had the misortune of being able to call strategy. With experience, he could have done the same as Jenson and ignored the pit call, but chose to come in a go onto inters.. The rest is history..
 
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