Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Here it is again:

I still can't believe McLaren thought Lewis was going to be able to pull a gap to make an extra pit stop. Why, oh why did they split their strategies up. They needed a 1-2 in this race, and they did their best not to achieve it.

As you can see, i'm not insane.

 

[RickD]

Ray - I think you're getting confused, Hamilton pitted BEFORE Vettel and Button, not after. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and all that, but unless you have a crystal ball, you are just wasting your braincells thinking about what might have been..

 

[Johnny Carwash]

Master of his own downfall today had 25 points in his pocket but ended up with 12 instead.

 

[F1ang-o]

Oh Jesus stop making Lewis the victim, he made a mistake, it could have gone wrong but it didn't, he put another racer in danger so he got a penalty. The only person responsible for this is himself.

You mention Jesus.....& victim......Crucified

Lewis didn't put another racer in danger..he got out of it smartly
He was on the wrong tyres..........team effort for Button 100%

 

[Quintessentially]

I think in a way, the extra set of ss Hamilton saved in quali compromised his strategy otherwise he would've been put on the harder tyre like Button. Doing a small analysis - Hamilton was roughly 7seconds ahead of Button after pitting for ss and needed an extra 11seconds to make the strategy work. Bearing in mind the ss lasts around 14laps and is 0.8s per lap quicker than the soft tyre, he would've gained an extra 11seconds in addition to the 7seconds he already had on Button. At the very worst, he would've come out just behind Button and battled for the win. For me it all started going wrong before the spin when he struggled to build on the 7second lead he had on Button. Strangely, Button appeared to be quicker on the slower soft tyre and increasingly reduced the gap, bringing it down to under 6seconds before Hamilton had his spin. Also interestingly Hamilton lost time at an alarming rate towards the end of his stints, possibly due to very high tyre wear, and it would've been touch and go whether he could've made it to the end without pitting again had he being put on the durable soft tyre.

 

[jez101]

There were four things that lost him the race:

1. Going on to a third set of super softs was the wrong call.
2. Caught out by being the first driver to come across a wet kerb.
3. Going on to inters was the wrong call.
4. Drive through, which was pretty harsh.

Sum total: 2 unnecessary pit stops, 1 unlucky spin, 1 harsh penalty = more than the 50 seconds he ended up behind. Frankly it's amazing he still managed to finish 4th.

A couple of disclaimers first... I was i) watching in a bar in spain, ii) with no commentary, iii) with beer and iv) I didn't see qually so have no idea of the difference between primes and options, but...

When Webber was the first to put the primes on I thought that was his race done. Similarly when Vettel and JB did the same, I thought Lewis would make up the time and win quite comfortably, even if the others made it through the 30 odd laps to the end. Without the background, it seemed implausible that the primes would do 30 laps with any sort of pace.

Again, when Lewis went onto the inters, I had been shouting at them all to get onto the right tyres. I didn't have rain radar (and the teams did), but the old addage of being on the right tyres for the track conditions was front and centre in my mind. They had been slipping and sliding all over the place and it seemed at that moment in time that being on inters was the right thing. Then it stopped raining.

The spin and drive through... well the spin was unfortunate and the drive through definitely deserved, but if he had just sat there and waited for Xmas (substitute for religious festival of your choice ), that would have been wrong too.

Glad JB won. It showed his maturity vs Lewis again (was he the only one not to leave the track at some point?), but let's not be too harsh on either Lewis, McLaren or Whitmarsh for once?

 

[F1ang-o]

and there was his thread going so well, then the foil hat brigade have to go and spoil it..

Another way of responding:

F1ang-o
Why do you think Whitmarsh is favouring anyone?

Strategy.....

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Ray - I think you're getting confused, Hamilton pitted BEFORE Vettel and Button, not after. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and all that, but unless you have a crystal ball, you are just wasting your braincells thinking about what might have been..

As I said before, hindsight may be a beautiful thing but it solves nothing. What was needed was foresight, and this was lacking. Putting Hamilton on the super softs was extremely foolish and badly calculated. It was foreseeably wrong. It was an obvious error from the team. They messed up royally.

 

[EvilWhippet]

Take another look at the spin folks. Pulling the car back around to carry on going moved him off the racing line. It was safer than staying put and waiting.

 

[MCLS]

While I agree it was a harsh decision, the stewards have to be consistent, and while it was completely different circumstances, Sutil did the same thing at Singapore in 2009 and clattered Heidfeld in the process, while it was a street circuit, that could have happened today. I think thats why the stewards penalised Hamilton.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

A couple of disclaimers first... I was i) watching in a bar in spain, ii) with no commentary, iii) with beer and iv) I didn't see qually so have no idea of the difference between primes and options, but...

When Webber was the first to put the primes on I thought that was his race done. Similarly when Vettel and JB did the same, I thought Lewis would make up the time and win quite comfortably, even if the others made it through the 30 odd laps to the end. Without the background, it seemed implausible that the primes would do 30 laps with any sort of pace.

Again, when Lewis went onto the inters, I had been shouting at them all to get onto the right tyres. I didn't have rain radar (and the teams did), but the old addage of being on the right tyres for the track conditions was front and centre in my mind. They had been slipping and sliding all over the place and it seemed at that moment in time that being on inters was the right thing. Then it stopped raining.

The spin and drive through... well the spin was unfortunate and the drive through definitely deserved, but if he had just sat there and waited for Xmas (substitute for religious festival of your choice ), that would have been wrong too.

Glad JB won. It showed his maturity vs Lewis again (was he the only one not to leave the track at some point?), but let's not be too harsh on either Lewis, McLaren or Whitmarsh for once?

Actually, I saw JB leave the track three times. Lewis never left the track, although he did spin in the middle of it.

 

[Quintessentially]

Jenson did have his own off track moments during the brief shower and he lost the lead to Hamilton as a result. I don't think Jenson has any special driving skills in inter conditions and it often does him a disservice the way the pundits are keen to stress that he loves these conditions. Yet they conveniently forget that we've had wet races like Korea last year where he's descended into mediocrity and wasn't able to luck himself out and Spa where he was going backwards until Vettel put him out of his misery. Let's not forget Silverstone - Hamilton passed him in less than 2 laps after the start despite starting 5grid places behind. The point is you have to accept that there is a huge amount of experience to be gained from 200 Grand Prixs especially when it comes down to calling strategy although I feel he genuinely won today's race on merit unlike Australia and China 2010.

 

[Josh]

Lewis didn't put another racer in danger..he got out of it smartly

I don't think this has any use so this is the last time I'll respond to your posts in this thread:

Hamilton spun, and then spun around in order to face the right direction again. While doing so he spun into the path of Paul di Resta who had to go through the grass in order to avoid him. If Paul didn't go through the grass he would have hit Hamilton, and by going through the grass he risked damaging his car and/or losing control of the car, which could result in hitting the wall, or Hamilton.

Was it a smart move by Hamilton? No. And if you watched his post-race interview, he actually apologized to di Resta and said he didn't see him. Clearly Hamilton recognized his error, why can't you?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I don't think this has any use so this is the last time I'll respond to your posts in this thread:

Hamilton spun, and then spun around in order to face the right direction again. While doing so he spun into the path of Paul di Resta who had to go through the grass in order to avoid him. If Paul didn't go through the grass he would have hit Hamilton, and by going through the grass he risked damaging his car and/or losing control of the car, which could result in hitting the wall, or Hamilton.

Was it a smart move by Hamilton? No. And if you watched his post-race interview, he actually apologized to di Resta and said he didn't see him. Clearly Hamilton recognized his error, why can't you?

The penalty was right but your description of the event was wrong. Lewis did not spin into Paul's path. Paul would have had to take the same line if Lewis had remained stationary. Paul also had plenty of room on track to go round Lewis but cautiously gave Lewis a wide berth and went off circuit.

 

[Brogan]

I don't think it has been mentioned in the thread, but everyone was extremely lucky to escape injury after Jerome's spin as he entered his pit box.

That could have been very nasty.

 

[Josh]

The penalty was right but your description of the event was wrong. Lewis did not spin into Paul's path. Paul would have had to take the same line if Lewis had remained stationary. Paul also had plenty of room on track to go round Lewis but cautiously gave Lewis a wide berth and went off circuit.

I don't think he really had enough room, but fair enough. Remember that the stewards have acces to more camera angles than we do, we couldn't really see it good enough to make a definite statement about it anyway, in my opinion. He may or may not have had enough room but Paul thought he didn't and the stewards thought he put him in danger.

I think a better decision would have been to drive off the racing line a bit and then spinning around, but that's hindsight and he would probably have chosen that approach now.

 

[MCLS]

I don't think it has been mentioned in the thread, but everyone was extremely lucky to escape injury after Jerome's spin as he entered his pit box.

That could have been very nasty.

Thank heavens HRT weren't planning a pit stop on that lap because it would have been nasty

 

[sushifiesta]

but let's not be too harsh on either Lewis, McLaren or Whitmarsh for once?

Those four things definitely lost Lewis the race but I'm not saying anyone in particular is to blame for it as like you say, based on the rest of the races so far this season, the strategy decisions were justified. I was just venting frustration that yet again things haven't gone his way.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I don't think he really had enough room, but fair enough. Remember that the stewards have acces to more camera angles than we do, we couldn't really see it good enough to make a definite statement about it anyway, in my opinion. He may or may not have had enough room but Paul thought he didn't and the stewards thought he put him in danger.

I think a better decision would have been to drive off the racing line a bit and then spinning around, but that's hindsight and he would probably have chosen that approach now.

In hindsight, it didn't really matter what he did. I'm sure he felt it was safe, I certainly think that it was safer than sitting in the middle of the track facing oncoming traffic. However, the rules are there for a reason and this particular rule is a good rule. If the rule were more open to interpretation it would likely lead to I consistent decisions.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Master of his own downfall today had 25 points in his pocket but ended up with 12 instead.

How?