Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/
 
Cfs, there are so many possible scenarios here, yet you seem to be saying that the only ones that make sense are thhe ones which you believe are correct, which is a position rather likely in itself to be seen as provocative.

I can see many viable alternatives. I see no real benefit in putting them forward any more than i have on any one of the many threads on which this situation has been discussed.

If you want to try and see things from the alternative side, the consider this.

Imagine Jenson was in lewis' position, and vice versa, what would be being said right about now?
 
If you want to try and see things from the alternative side, the consider this.

Imagine Jenson was in lewis' position, and vice versa, what would be being said right about now?

If Jenson was in Lewis' position, with track position, a healthy lead and requiring new tyres, its possible they would have similarly messed up and given him options as per the pre race agreed strategy, instead of thinking on their feet

Something similar happened at Monaco, Seb and his cleverer strategists/team boss thought on their feet and changed the strategy, capitalising on track position on a circuit where overtaking is hard. The Red Bull team boss decided to leave Seb out on his tyres, Buttons didnt and cost him the race

Common sense and vision is lacking at McLaren, and not just on lewis' side of the garage
 
And after monaco there were many comments that jenson threw away a win, by not being quick enough.

I am not saying it was not a mistake by the team, however, if it had rained harder, he would have been sitting pretty, could the team have been planning for that? Common wisdom, or at least my understanding of it is that super soft tyres should be the better slick tyres on a damp track, and Jenson is quick in those conditions. Lewis also had nearly a pit stop on vettel at one point, just before his spin.

Needless to say following the spin, penalty, inters etc, we were deprived of seeing what would have happened, and however much people believe they know what would have happened, only what actually happened is for certain.
 
Needless to say following the spin, penalty, inters etc, we were deprived of seeing what would have happened, and however much people believe they know what would have happened, only what actually happened is for certain.

I agree, the point still remains, McLaren made the wrong call in giving Lewis options on lap 40 and then Button primes on lap 42 knowing that the options had to lap over a second quicker consistently for a stint in a race that had changeable conditions and had seen all sorts of disruptions to pre race projections

Someone didn't or wasn't able to think on their feet, could not have been Lewis and therefore must be a member of Whitmarsh's team
 
You may very well be correct.

I would point out that ferrari made the same choice with alonso, red bull put webber onto inters, and at the time of the pit stops at around lap 40, I am not sure many thought that the prime tyres would go to the end or be quick enough, and it was mentioned on the commentary. I think that the team thought that buttons was the riskier strategy, and the choice was taken to cover off vettel.

I would add that what disappointed me the most was vettel extending his lead, when he really should not have.
 
They may not have thought it was much of a risk?

Maybe red bull thought they were taking a risk with vettel, to get back on terms with the mclarena?

I think we have been round and round now, and I think that respectfully, I feel it would be best to move on to other discussions, before things start getting more, erm, animated.

Cheers guys
 
I think i've basically said enough with no one on the other 'side' being able to explain my last post.

Suffice it to say, even if everything had gone 'perfectly' (including the last pitstop which is by no means a given), then Lewis would have still been behind Button and would have had to over-take Button for the win. That's hardly a riskless propostion. It's, in fact, a riskier proposition to where he was (i.e. in command of the race).

And this is precisely the problem. To you, and others, it's only the right result if Lewis wins. To McLaren it doesn't matter.
 
And this is precisely the problem. To you, and others, it's only the right result if Lewis wins. To McLaren it doesn't matter.

And Rays point is that this is a flawed approach when up against Alonsos Ferrari, and Sebs Red Bull.

If a driver can only win in changeable conditions, and these represent a small minority of races, than why you have a disadvantage when up against other teams that back the driver able to win any conditions, i.e. a true number one

To me, I dont really care about WCs, only about races and performances, having said that at Lewis' age history tells us that it would be silly to judge him by his Wcs

I expect him to later on in his career demand a situation where he is not hampered by a teams need to support his vanquished team-mate
 
And Rays point is that this is a flawed approach when up against Alonsos Ferrari, and Sebs Red Bull.

If a driver can only win in changeable conditions, and these represent a small minority of races, than why you have a disadvantage when up against other teams that back the driver able to win any conditions, i.e. a true number one

To me, I dont really care about WCs, only about races and performances, having said that at Lewis' age history tells us that it would be silly to judge him by his Wcs

(this following post is so far off-topic it should probably be deleted)
I agree that it's a sub-optimal strategy for the driver's championship. It's arguably a better one for the constructors', though. It's also more sporting.

Maybe Jenson can only win in changeable conditions. Maybe I'll forget he's a world champion for the moment. The point is, until Bernie gets his medals system through, wins don't matter (much) for the title - points do. I look at the championship and I don't see much in it.

Hamilton fans might consider that praise for Jenson is actually a huge compliment to Lewis too.
 
I've just noticed that ten drivers switched to inters for a second time, so half the drivers that were still in the race. The drivers were Hamilton, Webber, Rosberg, Petrov, Barrichello, Sutil, Maldonado, D'Ambrosio, Liuzzi and Kovalainen.

I was surprised it was this many but I think it goes to show just how lucky the likes of Button were and how unlikely the drivers above were because it looks like the decision basically came down to a toss of a coin. I certainly don't think it would be fair to blame McLaren or Hamilton for the 'mistake' of going on to inters.
 
I've just noticed that ten drivers switched to inters for a second time, so half the drivers that were still in the race. The drivers were Hamilton, Webber, Rosberg, Petrov, Barrichello, Sutil, Maldonado, D'Ambrosio, Liuzzi and Kovalainen.

I was surprised it was this many but I think it goes to show just how lucky the likes of Button were and how unlikely the drivers above were because it looks like the decision basically came down to a toss of a coin. I certainly don't think it would be fair to blame McLaren or Hamilton for the 'mistake' of going on to inters.

Nope. But the super softs? That's a different story and one that has been told to the degree that three days on it is already legend.
 
Unless the heavens opened with an almighty downpour, waiting a lap or so would have been more prudent, considering we cannot even say it was rain anyways.

We also know that Slicks hold up well enough unless it forms puddles and well with a mere drizzle we can hardly assume that the slicks would have been aqua planing around. When DC and Brundle talk about the risk of putting on a 2sec/Lap slower tyre, you have to be sure that it is going to RAIN in all intents and purposes.
 
A slightly delayed tyre chart from Mike Seymour of GP Update.

GPUpdate.net_InDepthTyreAnalysis_Hungaroring_2011.gif
 
I wonder why Rosberg stayed on inters for four laps? Could that have affected his finishing position? I'm not sure how far behind Buemi and Di Resta he finished.
 
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