Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Obviously he didn't outrace either of them or Alonso as he finished behind them.

To be clear on my position in this, I would rather have seen a McLaren 1-2, but think there are some Lewis fans here who think anything that happens to him is someone elses fault and that he ca do no wrong. He broke the rules today and also had the misortune of being able to call strategy. With experience, he could have done the same as Jenson and ignored the pit call, but chose to come in a go onto inters..

By the same logic you could say that Vettel out-pitstopped Massa last week.

Lewis could not have ignored the pit call. Jenson was able to do this as Hamilton had already been the guinnea pig and Lewis would have had to pit anyway as he was on a four stop strategy. There are days when drivers make mistakes and lose races and there are days when the pitwall make mistakes and lose races. Today was clearly the latter.

 

[Jen]

Shit happens, we actually don't know and no amount of hindsight arguing will change a jot - just take it race by race and enjoy the spectacle.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Shit happens, we actually don't know and no amount of hindsight arguing will change a jot - just take it race by race and enjoy the spectacle.

Well yeah, but debate and discussion (rather than arguing) are what forums are for.

 

[Lewywo4]

If he was on the right tyres the spin would not have happened. Everyone else was on the harder tyre. It was certainly the tyre call on the third pit stop that ruined Lewis' race. What a monumental foul up.

Especially when you consider they felt that those drivers on the harder tire were going to run to the end. During Q2 yesterday Lewis showed that he was rather quick on the harder tire. Considering the start, a very disappointing turn of events.

 

[Jen]

Well yeah, but debate and discussion (rather than arguing) are what forums are for.

Maybe so but we are all on a sticky wicket when we don't know - I think even you might agree with that?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Maybe so but we are all on a sticky wicket when we don't know - I think even you might agree with that?

But that does not make debate and discussion of the subject pointless. In fact, it's what I come here for.

 

[The Pits]

If I could also add, with the caveat that I am by no means an expert, MB and DC both said that the super soft was the tyre to be on in those conditions, as it was able to hold the temperature better, failing that, the inters. So I am not sure that the point about being on the right tyres really holds water.

The strategy may have been found wanting in a fully dry race, however, the switch to inters was the reallly costly decision

 

[ExtremeNinja]

If I could also add, with the caveat that I am by no means an expert, MB and DC both said that the super soft was the tyre to be on in those conditions, as it was able to hold the temperature better, failing that, the inters. So I am not sure that the point about being on the right tyres really holds water.

The strategy may have been found wanting in a fully dry race, however, the switch to inters was the reallly costly decision

Yep. That was a dumb move and looked more like a gamble from McLaren to try and save their earlier mistake. In the end it didn't really make much difference as the damage had already been done.

 

[Jen]

It does make it pointless when we are discussing a given. I'm not trying to be difficult, I just don't see the point in talking about something that has happened unless we, as knowledgeable fans, could have made a better call and, more importantly, been in a position to do so.

 

[The Pits]

Yep. That was a dumb move and looked more like a gamble from McLaren to try and save their earlier mistake. In the end it didn't really make much difference as the damage had already been done.

Quick question, would Lewis have made the same decision if he was behind Jenson, and Jenson had gone past the pits without stopping for Inters?

 

[jez101]

Those four things definitely lost Lewis the race but I'm not saying anyone in particular is to blame for it as like you say, based on the rest of the races so far this season, the strategy decisions were justified. I was just venting frustration that yet again things haven't gone his way.

I agree with you sushi. Just wanted to try and head off another Whitmarsh witch-hunt

I have been pretty critical of McLaren this year, but on this occasion, they did everything (for Lewis) that I would have done, if I had been running the race for them from a bar in Spain, with no rain radar, commentary and 4 pints inside me

 

[sportsman]

I don't think Heidfeld has much to do with it unless there is a self-destruct button which is manually operated. I think those forward facing exhausts make the Renault particularly vulnerable to fire.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Quick question, would Lewis have made the same decision if he was behind Jenson, and Jenson had gone past the pits without stopping for Inters?

They had asked Jenson to go in an queue behind Lewis. Anyway, Hamilton needed tyres wether they were slicks or inters. Lewis was on a four stop and Jenson was on a three stop. The tyre choice ended up being pretty much inconsequential.I. Sure you are not suggesting that Lewis could have switched to a three stop and taken his knackered super sorts to the end of the race.

 

[The Pits]

Sure you are not suggesting that Lewis could have switched to a three stop and taken his knackered super sorts to the end of the race.

No, I am simply saying that if time had not been lost through the extra pit stop, and the lost time on the inters, he may have been looking up the road to Alonso, rather than Webber.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

McLaren think they are clever dicks when it feels 9 times out of ten they get it very wrong. That was a 1-2 down the drain and a shameful allowance of Vettel to extend his lead. Whitmarsh should not be so happy with this result.

Hmmm...So KekeTheKing and I aren't the only ones feeling like this today?

Thank goodness there's some sensible people here. Lewis was in control of the race, leading it. Vettel was never going to beat either of the McLarens today.

Why on earth Lewis was put under such extreme and unneccessary pressure whilst he's on his way to leading a 1-2 is complete and utter stupidity.

O the marketing men will be hyping the victory but I bet you Ron Dennis is probably wondering about the incompetence of it all. He knew that McLaren should have been collecting a 1-2.

Vettel must be laughing that he was able to poach 2nd today!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

the switch to inters was the reallly costly decision

I think this is where we started. Given the difference in points between a win and second relative to the difference between third and fourth I am countering your statement and suggesting that the decision to run a four stopper and put Lewis on super softs was actually the really costly decision. I think I've done that now though so nothing more to add.

 

[Lewywo4]

The only explanation I can see is that they didn't expect Hamilton to be able to make it to the end without a further stop.

How could Mclaren believe that Lewis could have still pulled out such a gap, and on his required stop to take on the hard tire, that he would have been able to continue and maintain his lead over Button, Vettel and Alonso?

Does Mclaren believe that Lewis is truly.....Superman?

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Spun...

The spin .

That's the primary result of putting unneccessary and undue and stupid pressure on a driver to make up 8.5-10ths of a second a lap for 13 or 14 laps WHEN THEY DIDN'T NEED TO!!!

That's TOO FINE a margin...so why do that?

You DON'T do that to a driver who's leading. You DON'T take that kind of wild and outrageous risk when you're controlling a Grand Prix at the front.

Those types of risks are for a driver who isn't leading and is, possibly, out of position.

It was a VERY tall ask of Hamilton in those types of conditions. It was a very tall ask for almost any great Number 1 driver in history...and the result was a failure to maintain that measured and controled lead to the end.

Very Stupid.

Why is no one asking the question? Why is'no one from the BBC or any motor racing journalist not posing the question to Whitmarsh?

Why?

 

[Jen]

And how many seconds did Lewis lose on the drive through?

 

[MCLS]

About 16?