Grand Prix 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Who was saying 2011 was boring?

It's amazing how a few non Red Bull dominated races can change the complexion of F1 and suddenly it's exciting again. However before we get too carried away, Vettel still holds a massive points lead and despite a poor (by his standards) race in Germany, he is still hot favourite as the F1 circus rolls into Hungary.

Hungary isn't known for it's exciting races (apart from 2006 possibly thanks to the weather) due to the dust bowl and lack of overtaking oppurtunities, but if 2011 is anything to go by, the phrase 'no overtaking' has been thrown out of the dictionary.

Despite recent set backs Red Bull will be favourites to bounce back at a circuit which suits them to a tee with weather conditions that will be beneficial to Vettel who struggled with grip at the chilly Nurburgring. However Ferrari and Mclaren have shown that they won't just stand still and let Red Bull walk to the championship with Hamilton and Alonso winning in the last 2 grand prix.

Indeed Mclaren seemed to be in trouble going into the German GP as they were off the pace of the Red Bulls and Ferraris, but in Hamiltons hands the car made a miracle recovery to not only take a front row position ahead of Vettel, but take the teams third win of the season after very stiff competition from Alonso and Webber. Is this the start of the established teams fightback?

Even beleagured Ferrari driver Massa has showed improved form recently with two 5th placed positions in the last 2 races but they could have easily been 2 fourth places had it not been for a strong defensive rearguard from Hamilton in Silverstone and a pit stop mess up in Germany which enabled Vettel to get past on the last lap. As Ferrari plan to take the fight to Red Bull, they will need Massa to take points off Vettel and Webber if Alonso is to have any chance of a miracle fightback.

Mercedes are in a league of their own at the moment, but not in a good way. They are faster than the likes of Renault and Force India, but slower than Ferrari, Red Bull and Mclaren and the 7th/8th place almost has a Mercedes name penned in if there aren't any incidents, (which knowing Schumacher is rare)

Renault have dropped off badly after a strong start to the season and after a crash from Heidfeld and a poor race from Petrov, they now find themselves picking up the scraps in the midfield for 5th place in the championship as Mercedes start to pull away from the black and gold outfit, maybe a tweak of the exhaust might bring them better fortunes in Hungary.

One person who drove a great race in Germany but hardly got any recognition was Adrian Sutil who drove probably the best race of the German drivers. 6th place after a strong qualifying will no doubt relieve the pressure that had been building on him and will show to Di Resta that he won't have things his own way at Force India and that Hulkenberg might have to wait a while for a race seat.

No doubt that there won't be any uncertainties about the weather this weekend as more often than not Hungary provides a race weekend with 30 degree sunshine with not a cloud to be seen, apart from the 2006 race which was notable for Jenson Buttons first win in the Honda.

For Galahads superb circuit write up see here http://cliptheapex.com/pages/hungaroring/

 

[ExtremeNinja]

And how many seconds did Lewis lose on the drive through?

About 20 seconds at a guess. Will need to check the lap data.

 

[MCLS]

20 seconds is a full pit stop though isn't it?

 

[Brogan]

About 20 seconds at a guess. Will need to check the lap data.

Lap times are here: http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/hun-race-analysis.pdf

 

[ExtremeNinja]

20 seconds is a full pit stop though isn't it?

Yah, I reckon you're closer to the Mark. Where's Brogan with all his data when you need him?

 

[The Pits]

How could Mclaren believe that Lewis could have still pulled out such a gap, and on his required stop to take on the hard tire, that he would have been able to continue and maintain his lead over Button, Vettel and Alonso?
Does Mclaren believe that Lewis is truly.....Superman?

He would not have needed to use the prime tyres, as they all started on inters. I do not know the relative merits of a 4 stop over a 3 stop in the circumstances, clearly there are people here who think they do, however, I am neither saying I agree nor disagree with the strategy.

I do know, that if it had stayed dry, I would rather my car on fresh super soft rubber, and chasing down someone in front who is on worn soft rubber, remember China?

Either way, and whatever anyone says, or doesnt say, the spin, and subsequent penalty removed the chance to see what might have happened. I am personally not convinced that one extra stop for super soft tyres would have been a disaster

I think this is where we started. Given the difference in points between a win and second relative to the difference between third and fourth I am countering your statement and suggesting that the decision to run a four stopper and put Lewis on super softs was actually the really costly decision. I think I've done that now though so nothing more to add.

We started talking about Lewis being on the wrong tyre when he spun no? I was simply asking what you think would have happened if Jenson was in front of Lewis at the pit stops, and had made the decision not to stop. I believe that the other points I have also touched on, but I agree, this could go on like a Ray thread if we are not careful (no offence Ray!!!) and I do not think that would get us anywhere anytime soon.

Cheers!!

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I do not know the relative merits of a 4 stop over a 3 stop in the circumstances, clearly there are people here who think they do, however, I am neither saying I agree nor disagree with the strategy.
Cheers!!

The merits of the comparative stops were demonstrated by Jenson in the same car. It's not speculation to say that Jenson was on the better strategy.

 

[Lewywo4]

Well I'm just severely hacked off. I think McLaren strategy yet again failed and this week it was Hamilton's turn. I don't actually understand why Button is getting so much praise either, he left the track several times, was not as quick as Hamilton or Vettel in the wet, in fact from what I can see the strategists in Woking won him this race, all Jenson needed to do was keep the car going which again I will say is not racing, it's not what I want to see. I'm a bit tired of him being hailed as the master in these conditions when he just takes instruction. I don't blame him for saying no to queuing, any driver worth their salt would say no but lets not pretend this was some amazing strategy call. He won which was great but that win was not in the class that we've seen from the other three race winners this season.

McLaren think they are clever dicks when it feels 9 times out of ten they get it very wrong. That was a 1-2 down the drain and a shameful allowance of Vettel to extend his lead. Whitmarsh should not be so happy with this result.

 

[EvilWhippet]

Shit happens

I wish someone would tell the stewards this.

 

[Quintessentially]

How could Mclaren believe that Lewis could have still pulled out such a gap, and on his required stop to take on the hard tire, that he would have been able to continue and maintain his lead over Button, Vettel and Alonso?

Does Mclaren believe that Lewis is truly.....Superman?

From tyre data gathered in Free Practice the super soft tyre was around 0.8s per lap faster. Hamilton was around 7seconds ahead of Button at the time of pitting for the super softs (lap 40). Had things gone to plan and he'd would've built a gap big enough to retain the lead or at least come out close to Jenson after his final pitstop. I think McLaren have learnt their lessons after Malaysia(i think) when Hamilton became a sitting duck towards the end of the race after a very long stint. Things started going wrong when Jenson started matching him for pace on the soft tyre to the point of outpacing him at times. I think the real question is -why was Hamilton not able to pull a gap to Jenson despite being on the faster tyre (see lap 40 onwards)?

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/hun-race-history.pdf

I found this very strange and it suggests there were some underlying issues with the car or Hamilton was simply overheating his tyres. Perhaps track conditions neautralised the performance difference between the two tyres. Whatever it was, I think this was turning point. I am certain he would not have come in for inters had he been able to retain a significant gap to Jenson and there was an element of panic in the decision to go for the tyre. I know this makes uncomfortable reading for those keen to blame the McLaren strategists but these are the bare facts.One thing I would say about Hamilton is that he is absolutely fair when fighting with Jenson and there was a near banzai move by the latter at the start and when the showers came again, on both occasions Hamilton gave him plenty of room and did nothing untoward when he could've easily squeezed him and ruined his race.

 

[EvilWhippet]

Ray just have a cigarette or something else smokeable and calm down.

 

[f1fansp]

Wonder how many people on here would have claimed during the race that their chosen strategy would be to spend half of the dry race (~30 laps) on the slower Prime tyre that, I can't recall having been the winning strategy all season, especially with a set of Options remaining.

I certainly wouldn't have before the race, and didn't at the time.

 

[Quintessentially]

How far has safety come in F1? 20-30years ago Heidfield would've been stuck in the car burning away with poorly trained and badly equiped marshalls standing by. Most avid F1 fans would've seen this but here it is again..

 

[ExtremeNinja]

The way the race had evolved it was a pretty straight forward call. Again I bring us back to the question of foresight. They surely planned a four stopper from the outset but they would have expected Lewis to have pulled out a bigger lead by then having used his one set of fresh softs. The conditions neutralised much of the difference in tyre performance too.

 

[RayInTorontoCanada]

Evil, do you disagree?

Remember, as well, that having an increased number of pit stops also increases the chances of an error in the pit lane. Even a tiny error. So that leaves the team and Hamilton with no margin for error.

You're asking a guy to pound out a minimum 11.5 seconds in about 13 laps over the 2nd fastest guy in the race and giving him no room for any mistake...and then your asking your pit crew to be absolutely perfect yet again when - as everone here is well aware - there's an error or delay at virtually every race of some magnitude during those tyre stops.

Why do that when YOU DON'T HAVE TO!!!

What kind of foolish thinking is that? Again, do you, Evil, disagree with what i've said here?

Hamilton came in on 40; Button on 42. You're expecting a lot of Hamilton to make up 8 to 9 tenths a lap in tricky conditions. That's way too extreme a level of pressure...and that's putting the lead car in a riskier strategy unneccessarily so.

 

[Galahad]

So far as I remember only one of the leaders had gone onto the prime tyre at that stage.

30 laps on any compound of tyre is a tough ask for Hamilton this season, except at Monaco, and I'm sure that was a part of the reason for the decision.

Anyway, the supersoft was reckoned to be between 0.8-1.3s/lap faster than the soft based on practice running, so the gap should have been possible for one with as great gifts as Lewis. Why wasn't he quicker?

 

[ExtremeNinja]

So far as I remember only one of the leaders had gone onto the prime tyre at that stage.

30 laps on any compound of tyre is a tough ask for Hamilton this season, except at Monaco, and I'm sure that was a part of the reason for the decision.

Anyway, the supersoft was reckoned to be between 0.8-1.3s/lap faster than the soft based on practice running, so the gap should have been possible for one with as great gifts as Lewis. Why wasn't he quicker?

The track wasn't wet in practice for a start.

 

[Galahad]

The track wasn't wet I. Practice for a start.

Indeed not. Softer compound tyres retain heat better in cold or damp conditions, though, so that's not a reason.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

And the hard tyre would last longer on a damp track and so on. The differing conditions from practice to race mean that the difference in speed of the tyres measured in practice was not relevant to the race due to the fact that quite a large variable had been altered.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Anyway, the supersoft was reckoned to be between 0.8-1.3s/lap faster than the soft based on practice running, so the gap should have been possible for one with as great gifts as Lewis. Why wasn't he quicker?

Lewis on primes was 4/10ts behind Button on options in Q2

If there was a dumb decision, it was not to have learnt from that, he had track position, he was 7 secs ahead, why give him an extra stop at same time as everyone else so he had to make up so much

mindboggling

 

[f1fansp]

And the hard tyre would last longer on a damp track and so on. The differing conditions from practice to race mean that the difference in speed of the tyres measured in practice was not relevant to the race due to the fact that quite a large variable had been altered.

So the usefullness of practice was nullified with regard to compound differentials due the differing conditions?
So presumably similarly on the number of laps a set of tyres could do?

Intrigued as to how you forecast the Prime tyres would last to the end of the race.