2011 Average Race

[Pyrope]

Very interesting indeed. As RaspitinLives says, it puts the lie to those who think tweaking the points systems alters the end result. On that topic, how does 1982 look by the same metric?

 

[RasputinLives]

See Wombat's response above.

Still don't know how you can say Massa has had a worse season than Webber. I agree its not been good for him but he's been made to look worse by Alonso having such a good year.

Ferrari = 3rd best car - Massa is in second Ferrari should = 6th and does

Red Bull = best car - Webber is second Red Bull should = 6th but = 3rd

and I should add that without the win in Brazil that you yourself have indicated was given to him (your words not mine) then he would actually have been 4th which is even worse.

So to me Webber had worse season than Massa

 

[ExtremeNinja]

I thought Webber drove well a lot of the time. Massa drove terribly most of the time. This is only my opinion so we'll agree to disagree.

 

[Wombcat]

@Rasputin: because the difference between Massa and Alonso in average position is bigger than between Webber and Vettel you can very well say that Massa did worse than Webber.

In points scored there's the same pattern. Webber scored 66% of Vettels' points. Massa scored 46% of Alonsos' points. So Massa performed a lot worse compared to Alonso than Webber did to Vettel.

And Ferrari is always said to be the 3rd best car. In my opinion that is because Massa did so poorly. If Mass had done a better job, and been closer to Alonso, the difference in points between McLaren and Ferrari wouldn't have been this big. Alonso has managed to beat one or both of the McLarens on a regular basis (in the race). Massa almost never did.

And I know very well that Alonso is one of the top rated drivers, but in 2007 the difference between Alonso and Hamilton was marginal, and this year it isn't actually really big either. People always say that Alonso outdrives the Ferrari. IMO the Ferrari isn't that much slower than the McLaren in the race, but it's Massa who was really bad this year.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

The difference is that it's not hard to beat a Mercedes in a Ferrari. If Massa had fallen behind the Mercs, I don't think he would have a seat for next year. Webber has been beaten by one driver not in a Red Bull and that driver has had the season of his life and has been in a competitive car.

 

[Slyboogy]

The difference is that it's not hard to beat a Mercedes in a Ferrari. If Massa had fallen behind the Mercs, I don't think he would have a seat for next year. Webber has been beaten by one driver not in a Red Bull and that driver has had the season of his life and has been in a competitive car.

He would have finished 4th without that win which some say was "fixed". Hamilton finished 21 points behind him despite his troubled season.

 

[RasputinLives]

And I know very well that Alonso is one of the top rated drivers, but in 2007 the difference between Alonso and Hamilton was marginal, and this year it isn't actually really big either. People always say that Alonso outdrives the Ferrari. IMO the Ferrari isn't that much slower than the McLaren in the race, but it's Massa who was really bad this year.

That works really well if a driver was a consistant and not a variable. Just because Alonso and Hamilton were on a par in 2007 does not mean they are still exactly the same in 2011. I agree life would be much simpler if everything was neat at and tidy like that but also much more boring. Drivers forms go up and go down - sometimes there luck is in sometimes its out - sometimes things in their life combine to make things great for them sometime it combines to make things difficult for them. Alonso has had a good year - Lewis, as we all know, hasn't so I don't agree with your opinion.

As for Webber you can throw per centages at me all you like but when your team mate wins 11 races and you barely lead a Grand Prix then your season pretty much sucks. Throw in the fact that he was officially the worst starter of the season(am I right in thinking he didn't gain a place all season?) and that in a car that everyone is talking about as being untouchable could only sneak 3rd place in the championship by benifiting from a team-mates mechanical problem and its hard to think of someone having a worse season.

Massa on the other hand didn't set the world on fire its too but lets remember he spent most of the season dueling with one Lewis Hamilton which is probably where he should be just its the out come and the way he handled it was usually not the greatest. Lets also remember that Fellipe had to follow team orders a lot of the time and often had to contend with Ferrari's rather terrible 'alternative' strategy. Also if your comparing starts this season Massa has blown Webber away. Not saying Massa has had a good season or anything but lets not beat about the bush he didn't have a championship winning car and his performance compare to his team mate was not disimmilar to the season before. Webber on the other hand blew it.

 

[Brogan]

By dint of the fact that Vettel is better than Webber, and the Red Bull is the class of the field, Webber was only ever going to be behind Vettel in every race.

It stands to reason therefore that he has barely led a lap or won a race, as Vettel has been in front most of the time.

 

[RasputinLives]

I guess logically - but surely by the same approach he should at least be second in the table of most laps lead this season right?

Anyone know how many laps Massa led this season and how many Webber led?

 

[Il_leone]

Still an average season from Webber. 134 pts behind his teammate in the best car which is equivalent to 5 race wins shows thats a serious thrashing he got from Vettel

Compare this with previous dominant champions against teammates

Alonso/ Fisichella

2006 53.7%
2005 43.7%

Schumacher/ Barrichello

2004 77.0%
2003 69.9%
2002 53.5%
2001 45.5%
2000 57.7%

So Webber's done better but the Red Bull was a clear superior car to have

 

[Brogan]

Massa 9 laps led - http://www.manipef1.com/drivers/2011/fmassa/
Webber 59 laps led - http://www.manipef1.com/drivers/2011/mwebber/

Button 88
Hamilton 150
Alonso 95

 

[Slyboogy]

Massa 9 laps led - http://www.manipef1.com/drivers/2011/fmassa/
Webber 59 laps led - http://www.manipef1.com/drivers/2011/mwebber/

Button 88
Hamilton 150
Alonso 95

Why is there no Vettel in that list?

 

[Brogan]

Err, the question was Massa v Webber: http://cliptheapex.com/threads/2011-average-race.4202/page-2#post-96638

I just added the other drivers for comparison.

 

[Slyboogy]

If anyone's interested Vettel led 1079 laps.

 

[RasputinLives]

So using statistics to prove anything like 53% of all people know is possible I can say that Webber led 6% of the laps that Vettel did whilst Massa led 10% of the laps Alonso did.

Both beat their team-mates twice in 19 races which is pretty poor so I'm not trying to argue either of them have a good season but for me this is all about hunger. Mark Webber clearly had a car that could win Grand Prixs and world titles - just the same as he did last year - Drivers don't get that very often and when they do they have to grab hold of it - ask Jenson Button - Unlike last year Webber pretty clearly failed to do that. Would Massa have done any better in the same situation? We don't know for sure but I'd like to think yes - given the chance in 06, 07 and 08 he raised his game and I'd like to think he would have this season as well. We've seen all sorts of drivers slump to bad form when they know they don't have a car that can win the championship - Lewis did it this season. To me thats not a crime and natural for a driver to get down in that situation.

For me Mark Webber commited the ultimate F1 crime this season. He had a championship winning car and failed to use it! Just ask yourself how many other drivers would have killed to be in his position and then work out in your head how many you think would have done better. More than who'd have done better than Massa if you'd stuck em in a Ferrari with a wobbley wing thats for sure.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

For me Mark Webber commited the ultimate F1 crime this season. He had a championship winning car and failed to use it! Just ask yourself how many other drivers would have killed to be in his position and then work out in your head how many you think would have done better. More than who'd have done better than Massa if you'd stuck em in a Ferrari with a wobbley wing thats for sure.

Thanks Rasputin, that's pretty much what was in my mind when I raised my original comparison between Webber and Massa. It's not necessarily crucial to me which one had the worst season but, regardless of Massa or anyone else, Webber in my view did have a pretty bad one considering the car that was underneath him; yet it's Massa who seems to get most of the attention.

 

[FB]

It Mark had clashed with Lewis as many times as Felipe did I guarentee you he would have got as many column inches in the putrid press, and posts on here. Mark simply passed under most peoples radar as he was there but not doing much.

 

[Road of Bones]

Let's take a moment here to consider that perhaps it was Vettel, rather than the RB7, that was the difference to this year's championship. If the RB7 was that good then surely Red Bull could have expected more than a mere three 1-2 finishes? Remember how many times Ferrari notched up 1-2s with Schumi & Rubens, or Patrese dutifully following Mansell home in '92?

I think Webber's getting a bit of an unfair go in this thread at the moment - he led most of 2010, and had the title nicked from under his nose at the last gasp, and this season he's been comprehensively mullered by Winfinger, who seems to have found his sweet spot in terms of confidence married to ability.

 

[Il_leone]

Webber has no excuse - last year he lead the longest period in the 2010 championship and one fatal error in Korea changed everything
Then he first moaned Red Bull favour Vettel at the same time he was asking for more team support -- Mark has never been the smartest operator in the pitlane

Last race when they got to Abu Dhabi he apparently messed up his qualifying on Saturday by easing off over the line onto to be told to get back on it

THis year when he has outqualified Vettel he has failed to make his opportunities count..you can only say Silverstone was the team's fault

Still I've already said put Alonso, Hamilton or Button in that car they would have given Vettel a closer run for his money.

I know someone will say Mark gets all the bad luck at Red Bulll but last year he had a lot of good luck and failed to take advantage of it

 

[Wombcat]

Mark Webber clearly had a car that could win Grand Prixs and world titles - just the same as he did last year - Drivers don't get that very often and when they do they have to grab hold of it - ask Jenson Button - Unlike last year Webber pretty clearly failed to do that. Would Massa have done any better in the same situation? We don't know for sure but I'd like to think yes - given the chance in 06, 07 and 08 he raised his game and I'd like to think he would have this season as well.

I think no. If Ferrari had been the dominant car, Massa still would have been much slower than Alonso, and he´d be nowhere

Let's take a moment here to consider that perhaps it was Vettel, rather than the RB7, that was the difference to this year's championship. If the RB7 was that good then surely Red Bull could have expected more than a mere three 1-2 finishes?

Good point. It´s often said that Alonso outdrove the Ferrari. Who´s to say that Vettel didn´t do the same for the RB?