Grand Prix 2019 Canadian Grand Prix Practice, Qualifying & Race Discussion

Discussion in 'Formula One Discussion' started by FB, May 29, 2019.

  1. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Contentious issue is in claim by stewards, that upon Vettel's rejoining race Hamilton was right to be where he was, and Vettel was not. There is no physical evidence that Vettel could do as assumed by stewards, and they placed their subjective assessment against driver, and now some people disagree; I am one of those. Vettel was travelling on certain trajectory, worrying about keeping car out of spin. I am not sure how clear he was where Hamilton was, or even if he could do something else.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  3. Hamberg

    Hamberg FOTA VIP, I've got the avatar to prove it :) Contributor

    RasputinLives ^^^^ why i don’t bother posting much anymore.
     
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  4. Ruslan

    Ruslan Points Scorer

    Well, with the appeal this will get reviewed once again. We shall see what they say.

    But, in some respects, Andretti's comment does address the crux of the problem here...."flagrantly unsafe moves" vice "hard racing." I am not sure how you write that difference into a regulation or "properly" educate the stewards as to which is which.

    Again, going back to Verstappen and Vettel in Mexico in 2016 (which is an example for some reason everyone is ignoring even though I posted the video), Verstappen exits the track in the lead and returns in the safe manner back in front of Vettel, yet Vettel is on the radio saying "He has to give it up" and indeed Verstappen was penalized five seconds after the race. Now....suddenly a similar incident, with added bonus that is almost resulted in a collision, is suddenly a huge failure by the stewards. I do not understand the difference.
     
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  5. FB

    FB Not my cup of cake Valued Member

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    Because someone's favourite driver was punished, perchance?
     
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  6. I don't agree with Vertsppen's penalty in Mexico 2016 but I see a difference with what happened last Sunday, in the sense that Verstappen did gain an advantage (Vettel was much closer to him than Hamilton was to Vettel last Sunday), it's a bit of a stretch IMHO but there you go. Another decision on such matters that I totally disagree with is the penalty inflicted on Hamilton at Spa in 2008 (or was it 2009?). But that is not the point, there are opposite decisions on similar matters like Monaco 2016, IMHO Monaco 2016 is much closer to last Sunday that Mexico 2016 or Spa 2008.

    The point is that we got to the stage were a driver has to be penalized for making a mistake irrespective of whether he gained an advantage or not, that is something that I can't quite consider reasonable.

    The issue with the stwards will have to be addressed sooner or later because you need consistency in these matters
     
  7. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    I doubt they will do that. Brawn was already commenting on the latest incident, and sided with stewards. F1 is over-regulated, and as someone said, this is clear cut example how you ultimately kill the series.

    Come to think of it, I used to like Ross, but that was long time ago.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  8. sobriety

    sobriety Pole Sitter

    Except that in Monaco '16 the stewards adjudged that there was a cars width between Hamilton and the armco, just Danny Ric didn't have the minerals to go for it ;) There clearly wasn't that space at Montreal on Sunday, and the stewards adjudged that Vettel made sure that space wasn't there on purpose, so he got punished.
     
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  9. Ruslan

    Ruslan Points Scorer

    Publius Cornelius Scipio I believe favors Hamilton over Vettel....so that is really not relevant for this particular thread of discussion.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  10. Ruslan

    Ruslan Points Scorer

    Well, I think they were actually being "consistent" with this particular decision.....whether or not it was the right decision.
     
  11. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Really? In Mexico Verstappen once he cut across the grass and gained advantage over Vettel, he was supposed to immediately move over, and let Vettel back ahead of him. Such were general expectations, yet stewards instead let it be, to Vettel's detriment.

    Vettel got out of rhythm, slowed down, and ultimately this led into another alleged incident with Ricciardo.

    Steward's inconsistency totally demolished Vettel's race. Until today I hear Vettel screaming on the radio, he (Verstappen) has to give me that place back, as timing was of essence, yet Whiting let this one pass and dealt with it only too late for Vettel. I am sorry, but I do not detect any consistency you are suggesting that is there.
     
  12. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Izumi if you're closing your eyes and hearing Sebastian Vettel scream in your ears then you may need to seek advice.
     
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  13. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Radio com from that Mexico race was made public, mainly due to some salty language Seb used when Whiting's name came up. I thought you would have known about that. No magic carpet or voodoo dolls are involved, I assure you. Point was, there were expectations that rules of the race will be enforced in timely manner. Stewards of the race and Whiting failed - I do not want to go as far as claim they manipulated race results, despite it felt like it for me.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  14. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Hakkinen: Incidents like Vettel's need to be investigated thoroughly before penalties

    Hakkinen:

    “Getting onto the clean line is the automatic reaction. Finding the clean line and keeping the driver behind – it’s 50/50.At the angle Sebastian was at, he couldn’t see the car behind. So when you rejoin the circuit, you’re thinking “How far was the guy behind me, how long would it take for him to get here?” and calculating to make sure you don’t crash into him. The driver behind you can see you, has a brake pedal and has the whole racetrack to be used and to choose his line. The angle Sebastian went off, Lewis doesn’t have choices of line, only that he can really slow down.”

    Precisely, as stated now several times before, this subjective second guessing of driver's intent by bunch of men at the distance must be banned.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  15. Ruslan

    Ruslan Points Scorer

    Well, Vestappen was given a five second penalty after the race....which is why I say it is a precedence for the ruling made at Canada.

    I assume you then accept the argument that Vettel should have immediately moved over and let Hamilton ahead of him at Canada.
     
  16. Titch

    Titch Champion Elect Premium Contributor

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    In answer to nothing, just an observation, but it occurs to me that much gets lost in translation. Especially the Great British dry sense of humour.
     
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  17. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    No and No.

    1. In Mexico it was obvious, transparent and undisputed violation of rules by Vesrtappen, which was attended (deliberately?) in untimely manner, when race for Vettel was consequently adversely affected by that delay, as Verstappen was backing him into DR. Totally disgraceful act by FiA.
    2. In Canada, I find myself in agreement with Hakkinen (Publius, and many others) how to interpret this latest incident.

    At this point I think we beat that issue to death. I am still short on answer whether Ferrari has decided to proceed with appeal.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  18. RasputinLives

    RasputinLives Not dead Contributor

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    Yeah see Titch's point. Just trying to defuse anger with humour.
     
  19. Izumi

    Izumi Points Scorer

    Hamilton:
    Lewis Hamilton: “I watched the slow motion, it’s obviously very tight, what I can say is that if I was a leader and I made a mistake and went off, I probably would have done the same thing. It’s happening so fast, and you’re just trying to keep the position, and when I say I would have done the same thing, I would have tried to squeeze it too. In the end, that’s what happened.”
     
  20. I think that they were consistent in consistently messing with the races and consistently taking the wrong decisions without arguing their case properly, I mean it's Wednesday and still no written reasoning for the penalty, this is getting even worse than the Italian judiciary!!! :whistle:

    The problem is that there is a whole lot of similar cases that have been decided in an opposite way, ok I hear you guys saying that the FIA is governed by French law and under French law there is no such thing as a binding precedent but this is taking it a bit too far. And I disagree with this very broad interpetation of art. 27.3 which IMHO goes against the spirit of the law.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
  21. You know that I love discussing with you so let me turn the question to you: why didn't Hamilton pass Vettel on the inside? He had plenty of space to do so, Vettel had left him enough room to sail past him to his left hand side so why should Vettel be punished because Hamilton didn't realise that he had a golden chance of passing on the inside?
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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