Pre-Season Where should replace Shanghai?

The Artist.....

Champion Elect
. In a sense that would be good as it looks as if the most a venue is willing to pay to host a race the poorer the race is. Imola is IMHO a great track but the 2 chicanes at Tamburello and before Tosa should be removed

Given 1994, (Senna), 1992 (Patrese), 1991 (Alboreto), 1989 (Berger), and 1987 (Piquet), I can’t see Tamburello ever being restored to what it once was. A chicane 50 yards beforehand, with a flat-out acceleration through tamburello (like the Curva Grande at Monza) might be feasible, but in the flat-out hang On and hope seems unlikely!
 
Given 1994, (Senna), 1992 (Patrese), 1991 (Alboreto), 1989 (Berger), and 1987 (Piquet), I can’t see Tamburello ever being restored to what it once was. A chicane 50 yards beforehand, with a flat-out acceleration through tamburello (like the Curva Grande at Monza) might be feasible, but in the flat-out hang On and hope seems unlikely!

they all walked away with the exception of Senna and Senna died because a tiny bit from his suspension hit him on his forehead, he didn't have any other injury other than that, Tamburello is not a turn, you just have to try, it's a non issue, the tricky turn at Imola is Piratella. Tamburello has always been a very safe place where to crash at speed. Not so what they now call the "Villeneuve chicane", before the chicane an accident there could be nasty (think of Ratzenberger, Villeneuve in 1980, Tamara Vidali with her Alfa 155, a few less known motorbike racer, etc)
 

The Artist.....

Champion Elect
Have to disagree.
  • Piquet has to miss the race in ‘87, and had often said that he wasn’t the same for much of the rest of the season.
  • Berger suffered from major burns to his hands, and had to miss the next race
  • Alboreto crashed so heavily that his car was ripped to pieces
  • Patrese was touch and go for the 1992 race - even though his accident was relatively low impact
  • If a driver has an accident at the old tamburello, it was going to be massive.


 

sobriety

Pole Sitter
Senna died because a tiny bit from his suspension hit him on his forehead

From Wiki "The right front wheel had shot up upon impact and entered the cockpit, striking the right frontal area of his helmet. The violence of the wheel's impact pushed his head back against the headrest, causing fatal skull fractures.[11] A piece of suspension attached to the wheel had partially penetrated his Bell M3 helmet and caused trauma to his head.[11] In addition, it appeared that a jagged piece of the upright assembly had penetrated the helmet visor just above his right eye.[11] Senna was using a medium-sized (58 cm) M3 helmet with a new "thin" Bell visor. Any one of the three injuries would probably have killed him."

So while Tamburello isn't really a turn, the fact that there is no run off and no way of providing run off does mean that anything going wrong is potentially very serious for the driver given that all they can do is ride the car straight into a wall.
 
Have to disagree.
  • Piquet has to miss the race in ‘87, and had often said that he wasn’t the same for much of the rest of the season.
  • Berger suffered from major burns to his hands, and had to miss the next race
  • Alboreto crashed so heavily that his car was ripped to pieces
  • Patrese was touch and go for the 1992 race - even though his accident was relatively low impact
  • If a driver has an accident at the old tamburello, it was going to be massive.


I never crashed at Tamburello so I don't know for sure but you have to consider the speed that those cars were traveling at and if hitting a wall at 330 kph in any other place would have resulted in a fatality or not.

Of course they were all badly shaken, again you have to consider the speed. I never crashed at 300 kph but even at significantly slower speeds when you suffer from a sudden deceleration you feel really bad for days.

So my point is that Tamburello was one of the few places where you could hit a wall at 300 kph and walk away.

I'm sure that hitting the outside wall of Tamburello isn't a walk in the park but hitting a wall at that kind of speed normally ends in a fatality, the fact that so many times very high speed accidents at Tamburello resulted in the driver being badly shaken but otherwise mostly ok looks very significant to me.

I know that there is now a black legend surrounding Tamburello but to my knowledge the place that every driver feared at Imola was not Tamburello but rather the braking into Tosa (and, to a lesser extent, Piratella). Maybe drivers of a later generation that myself have changed idea. Tamburello was known to be dangerous for bikers
 
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From Wiki "The right front wheel had shot up upon impact and entered the cockpit, striking the right frontal area of his helmet. The violence of the wheel's impact pushed his head back against the headrest, causing fatal skull fractures.[11] A piece of suspension attached to the wheel had partially penetrated his Bell M3 helmet and caused trauma to his head.[11] In addition, it appeared that a jagged piece of the upright assembly had penetrated the helmet visor just above his right eye.[11] Senna was using a medium-sized (58 cm) M3 helmet with a new "thin" Bell visor. Any one of the three injuries would probably have killed him."

So while Tamburello isn't really a turn, the fact that there is no run off and no way of providing run off does mean that anything going wrong is potentially very serious for the driver given that all they can do is ride the car straight into a wall.

I'm not a doctor so all I can say is what I've heard from more qualifed sources, but even in the wiki page about Senna's death it appears that the main reason for Senna's death was

The autopsy showed that the crash caused multiple fractures at the base of the cranium, crushing the forehead and rupturing the temporal artery with haemorrhage in the respiratory passages

From visible injuries to Senna's head, it was evident to attending medical professionals that he had sustained a grave head trauma

Neurosurgeon Sid Watkins, the head of Formula One's on-track medical team, performed the on-site tracheotomy on Senna.[13] Watkins later reported:

He looked serene. I raised his eyelids and it was clear from his pupils that he had a massive brain injury.


Re your last statement we all agree 100% if I can only add a few thoughts I'd say that we all agree in 2020, in 1994 the acceptance of risk in motorsport was different from today. And also the cars were different: the wall at Tamburello was at an angle that was considered "safe" for the cars of that era. The braking into Tosa was at an angle that even in those days was considered very dangerous. To my knowledge until 1994 the only racers that had raised any doubts regarding the safety at Tamburello were motorbike racers (if I remember correctly there had been some serious accidents, and until the track was reshaped they used to create a temporary chicane at Tamburello when they were having motorbike races)
 
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cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
which circuits are up to spec, globally?

By "up to spec" do you mean have all the required safety standards to run a safe F1 race

Or

Do you mean wide open spaces of concrete run off to maximise advertising revenue, fast lanes to allow rapid VIP access and egress, enough space in the paddock to park several thousand tonnes of hospitality and a dull as dishwasher race track with the usual mix of Tilke designed corners built to deliberately prevent any form of close racing?
 

Il_leone

Champion Elect
Imola - Tamburello was a ridiculous corner - 180mph plus flat out if you go off line there was little run off as they can't put the wall back because there is a river behind it

Villeneuve - you are heading into a corner over 200mph to suddenly brake into that corner . It is amazing no one else got hurt there

I would say I think Imola is a circuit that can't be back on the F1 calendar
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
now this is what I expected because F1 don't cancel, they get cancelled its cheaper. but I cant see this being strange china & turkey in the past have been like they've been behind closed doors.

is this a possibility to reinstate shanghai or is that too dangerous

 

gethinceri

Lance Stroll Fan. Alfa Romeo Fan.
Contributor
By "up to spec" do you mean have all the required safety standards to run a safe F1 race

Or

Do you mean wide open spaces of concrete run off to maximise advertising revenue, fast lanes to allow rapid VIP access and egress, enough space in the paddock to park several thousand tonnes of hospitality and a dull as dishwasher race track with the usual mix of Tilke designed corners built to deliberately prevent any form of close racing?

The former
 

F1Brits_90

Race Winner
Do you mean wide open spaces of concrete run off to maximise advertising revenue, fast lanes to allow rapid VIP access and egress, enough space in the paddock to park several thousand tonnes of hospitality and a dull as dishwasher race track with the usual mix of Tilke designed corners built to deliberately prevent any form of close racing?

although I still believe having watching both F1 & F2, tilke is part of issue but the F1 cars take their share of the blame as well
 

Speshal

World Champion
Valued Member
now this is what I expected because F1 don't cancel, they get cancelled its cheaper. but I cant see this being strange china & turkey in the past have been like they've been behind closed doors.

is this a possibility to reinstate shanghai or is that too dangerous


If Lewis wins at Bahrain, he'll need to replace the best fans line.
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
Given we have now lost 4 of 22 perhaps this isn't such a daft idea. We could have the whole season in just over 3 weeks.
 
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