Tilke Tracks

LifeW12

Podium Finisher
Problem with Tilke circuit is the repetitive nature of corner sequences that are have been added to every circuit. Why do they all have to be long straights and slow corners :thinking: ? This makes field spread worse. Take Yas Marina. They had a billion US Dollars yet all that was produced was hairpin infested point and squit type track why didn't they spend the money and create some intresting corners?
 

Enja

isn't dead.
Valued Member
Re: Ask The Apex

Tilke is also a big fan of the "triple chicane" , seen in use at Singapore (where it stretches the field out), at Valencia (where it stretches the field out) at Abu Dhabi (where it stretches the field out) and now in Korea (where it will stretch the field out). :givemestrength:

The one saving grace for Korea I think will be the potential for the track ripping up.
 

F1Yorkshire

Avatar for sale to the highest bidder
Contributor
Re: Ask The Apex

Another one of Tilke's traits is his obsession with the amount of corners. I was looking on the database and worked out all the good tracks have less than 20 corners and all the tracks with more than 20 corners were unpopular. There are a few bad tracks with less than 20 corners but generally you can assume:

Corners < 20 = Great Race

Corners > 20 = Don't bother wasting your time getting out of bed.

Korea has 18 so if it sticks to the formula it has the potential to be popular. Other Tilkedromes with under 20 corners include Istanbul and Shanghai, not classic tracks but generally known as Tilke's best efforts.
 

LifeW12

Podium Finisher
Re: Ask The Apex

Enja said:
Tilke is also a big fan of the "triple chicane" , seen in use at Singapore (where it stretches the field out), at Valencia (where it stretches the field out) at Abu Dhabi (where it stretches the field out) and now in Korea (where it will stretch the field out). :givemestrength:

The one saving grace for Korea I think will be the potential for the track ripping up.

Slow corners are just as bad for following as fast corners :givemestrength:

I reckon what Tilke does is have some cards with lines on them (being the corners) and then arranges them to make the tracks.
 

sobriety

Pole Sitter
Re: Ask The Apex

I reckon what Tilke does is have some cards with lines on them (being the corners) and then arranges them to make the tracks.

I reckon it's more liekly to be 'special' scalectrix, the kind that only has one slot!
 

F1Yorkshire

Avatar for sale to the highest bidder
Contributor
Re: Ask The Apex

sobriety said:
I reckon what Tilke does is have some cards with lines on them (being the corners) and then arranges them to make the tracks.

I reckon it's more liekly to be 'special' scalectrix, the kind that only has one slot!

I found this on the 'Tilke' website.....

 

LifeW12

Podium Finisher
Re: Ask The Apex

F1Yorkshire said:
sobriety said:
I reckon what Tilke does is have some cards with lines on them (being the corners) and then arranges them to make the tracks.

I reckon it's more liekly to be 'special' scalectrix, the kind that only has one slot!

I found this on the 'Tilke' website.....


:spank:
 

KekeTheKing

Banned
Supporter
In general, I'm less critical of Tilke's tracks than many people are, but there is one trend that I find a little perplexing. All of Hermann's permanent circuits have been nearly the exact same length with a similar amount of turns. There's only about a 1/10th of a mile length difference between all 7 of his permanent tracks that F1 has raced on.

Sepang: 3.44 mi. - 15 Turns - 56 Laps
Bahrain (Pre-2010): 3.36 mi. - 15 Turns - 57 Laps
Shanghai: 3.387 mi. - 16 Turns - 56 Laps
Istanbul: 3.317 mi. - 14 Turns - 58 Laps
Valencia: 3.367 mi. - 25 Turns - 57 Laps
Yas Marina: 3.451 mi. - 21 Turns - 55 Laps
Yeongam: 3.492 mi. - 18 Turns - 55 Laps

Aside from Valencia it's not like open space could have been an issue, as these circuits have been built on sprawling expanses of land/swamp/desert. Has this length been mandated by the FIA as a pre-requisite for Formula One participation?

Whatever the reason for the cookie-cutter length, I believe it is partly responsible for some of the low overtaking totals Tilke tracks can produce. While some of the older, classic F1 tracks were very long (Hockenheim, Osterreichring, Spa, Old Interlagos), several of them were quite short by today's standards.

In the 1982 season, 8 of the permanent circuits used were significantly shorter than Tilke/Bernie's "chosen" distance. If you add Silverstone to the mix, that makes 9 circuits in regular use that come in under the "golden" length of today. Aside from the fact that there was often better overtaking opportunities on these tracks, with the additional laps, there was automatically more overtaking chances.

Kyalami: 2.55 mi. - 77 Laps
Jacarepagua: 3.12 mi. - 63 Laps
Imola: 3.13 mi. - 60 Laps
Zolder: 2.64 mi. - 70 Laps
Gilles Villeneuve: 2.740 mi. - 70 Laps
Zandvoort: 2.64 mi. - 72 Laps
Brands Hatch: 2.61 mi. - 76 Laps
Dijon: 2.36 mi. - 80 Laps
Silverstone: 2.93 mi. - 67 Laps

So not only has modern circuit design helped in reducing overtaking figures, but I think the modern circuit length has played a hand as well. Whether this is forced upon him by the FIA, or an obsessive-compulsive component of Tilke's track design philosophy, I do not know, but the theme appears to have continued in Hermann's plans for the Austin, Texas layout. Coming in at 3.4 miles with 20 turns, it is quite consistent with his previous creations.
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Tilke's hands are tied when it comes to designing tracks.
He can only work with what he is given and on top of that, Bernie has a significant input into the process.
This was aptly demonstrated in a documentary I saw a year or so ago which basically showed Tilke having his design rejected over and over again until Bernie was happy with it.

On top of that he has to design within the FIA constraints which are very detailed.
 

KekeTheKing

Banned
Supporter
Brogan said:
Tilke's hands are tied when it comes to designing tracks.
He can only work with what he is given and on top of that, Bernie has a significant input into the process.
This was aptly demonstrated in a documentary I saw a year or so ago which basically showed Tilke having his design rejected over and over again until Bernie was happy with it.

We should probably put the term "Tilke Track" to bed then. "Bernie-Plex" will be the new moniker, as it seems to me that Bernard's main concern is the Paddock and the amenities afforded those who tread in his inner-circle of cronies.
 

KekeTheKing

Banned
Supporter
We might as well have a look at Hermann's handiwork in this thread.



I think Istanbul is his best design. There are some excellent corners, a rare high-speed kink, and an excellent overtaking spot in turn 12. It's more of an old-school circuit in my opinion. Unfortunately, I remember hearing that the Turkish Round may be leaving the calendar soon.

I really like the Austin layout at the bottom. I'll be following the developments there closely.
 

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LifeW12

Podium Finisher
There seems to be this mutual agreement that no F1 track can be under 4km (except Monaco), which would make an 80 lap race. I don't see the problem with having a race with 80 laps which would create more overtaking chances if the circuit is designed correctly.

Some corners on Tilke tracks are counted as corners even if they're just a kink.
 

ATL11

Podium Finisher
Thoughts on the latest Tilke track? SK

I can see this one having a few chances of overtaking.

But do fear the Health & Safety people will be all over it for 2011, so it may lose some of it's appeal....
 
I would say I am less critical of Tiilke than most, as said above I think it should be remembered that the FIA safety regs are extraordinarily detailed and restrictive for what he can actually do. I don't think he himself is the problem but all of his work is very high profile and despite what we all think about them, only Valencia is as bad as the redesign of the A Ring he started out by doing. I am also a little cautious of being to critical of Yas Marina given we have only seen 1 race there which was to my mind the equivalent of a pre season friendly as no-one had anything to play for.

The reality is that a race track like anything else is difficult to do from scratch, I'd much rather see a game at Craven Cottage than the Emirates, doesn't mean the Emirates is bad but the charm and the certain unique nature of Fulhams stadium preferable. The Emirates was (like a Tiilke track) designed to be a high quality modern facility into which a charm and emotional resonance may grow, Craven Cottage (like Spa and Silverstone) was a modern facility 50-100years ago which has been adapted to the best fashion possible into a modern facility which is full of heart and history. The reality is, who knows how many other tracks opened at the same time as Spa and have since shut, if there are still 2 Tiilke tracks on the calendar in 15 years then that is pretty good going in the grand scheme.

I don't think when the first race at Silverstone took place everyone said it was great, it took years of history. After 12 years, I would say that Malaysia is every bit as good and entertaining as a B class European race like Magny Cours; who is to know if in 20 years Shanghai and similar wont be spoken of in the same breath as Spa, unlikely but who knows. Spa, Monza and Silverstone have been re profiled multiple times over the years, a nip and a tuck here and there in years to come and who knows.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
But Craven Cottage does not seem to be under threat.

BlackCountryBob said:
The reality is that a race track like anything else is difficult to do from scratch

Especially when you've got someone saying, "You can't put that overtaking zone there, I need a press centre", or "I know there are no streets here, but make a street circuit in this sector", or something equally insane.
 
teabagyokel said:
But Craven Cottage does not seem to be under threat.

BlackCountryBob said:
The reality is that a race track like anything else is difficult to do from scratch

Especially when you've got someone saying, "You can't put that overtaking zone there, I need a press centre", or "I know there are no streets here, but make a street circuit in this sector", or something equally insane.

If memory serves, Spa is not threatened because of its facilities or the track itself but because the organizers cannot make a profit in the commercial arena which Bernie has situated them.

My point is that it is somewhat unfair to criticise Tilke so much when the tracks he designed have had maybe 6 races on them when compared to 50-100 years history at Spa, Silverstone and Monza. As say, I feel that history is showing that Malaysia is a very interesting race but it has taken 12 years to find its identity, we have all seemingly crowned Abu Dhabi a flop after 1 race. That said, I would like to see whoever it was that designed Losail given a chance, or even just an F1 race on the Losail track.

Valencia is still crap though, Singapore is pretty useless too.
 

fat jez

Race Winner
Valued Member
I would love to be a fly on the wall during some of those conversations between Tilke and Bernie where he finds out the land he has to work with. Somehow I think we might find he's making the best of a bad job...

Blimey, never thought I'd be defending Tilke's circuit design! :o
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
From the pics on Keke posting, do you reckon if you cut them out they are jigsaw that makes up a profile picture of Bernie? :D
 
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