Ticket's for the band wagon now on sale !!!

[Muddytalker]

I think the drivers are also a bit slow to respond, and were all a bit too conservative. Back in the day, the drivers then knew that if you race hard you will trash your tyres, but the trade off was to try and gain a 20 sec+ lead before the tyres got so bad you had to change. Sometimes it worked for them, sometimes it didn't, but the effort was made.

From my armchair, it looks like the modern driver is all about bringing it home, don't risk losing the 6th place you've got, don't try anything that differs from what your race simulation program tells you. I.e. don't even try to make a difference yourself! Crikey, they even have to be told over the radio when to push, and when to look after the tyres, when to save fuel. That was all part of the job...

I can imagine the likes of Jones, Prost, Fittipaldi and Rosberg are dismayed to hear the drivers' reactions to Sunday, and wondering how the current generation turned into such a bunch of wet, whinging prima donnas.

 

[Brogan]

From my armchair, it looks like the modern driver is all about bringing it home, don't risk losing the 6th place you've got

If they do risk it, they get slated by the press and fans alike.
Remember Hamilton at Monza last year binning it on the penultimate lap?

As you say, there aren't enough drivers/teams now who are prepared to risk it all for the sake of an extra spot or 2.

Maybe they should scrap the current scoring system and have a clapometer installed at each circuit and the winner is decided that way?

 

[Enja]

I think the drivers are also a bit slow to respond, and were all a bit too conservative. Back in the day, the drivers then knew that if you race hard you will trash your tyres, but the trade off was to try and gain a 20 sec+ lead before the tyres got so bad you had to change. Sometimes it worked for them, sometimes it didn't, but the effort was made.

From my armchair, it looks like the modern driver is all about bringing it home, don't risk losing the 6th place you've got, don't try anything that differs from what your race simulation program tells you. I.e. don't even try to make a difference yourself! Crikey, they even have to be told over the radio when to push, and when to look after the tyres, when to save fuel. That was all part of the job...

I can imagine the likes of Jones, Prost, Fittipaldi and Rosberg are dismayed to hear the drivers' reactions to Sunday, and wondering how the current generation turned into such a bunch of wet, whinging prima donnas.

How are they supposed to create a 20 second gap when they have a car a second in front of them that they can't pass for half the race? 'Trashing' the tyres in that situation would be completely illogical.

Sometimes people come up with a lot of guff about how the drivers are a bunch of pansies and that they couldn't manage strategy themselves, they couldn't manage the old turbo cars, they couldn't manage without the aids that they have.. Utter rot.

The rules have been designed in such a way that drivers have ridiculously low input on how things are run. People make a similar, misguided, argument about the comparison between GP2 and F1, that somehow the F1 guys aren't as "hungry" or as "bold" as some of the GP2 guys, again, complete nonsense. If they were able to race in close proximity, they would. Drivers seldom change over the eras, they're still as eager as we are to race each other wheel to wheel.

Pit-to-car radio and forms of telemetry should be banned, unless there is a specific incident where they need to inform them of safety issues. It's a huge amount of manpower and money, and it does cuddle the drivers somewhat. They really could do without it.

If they do risk it, they get slated by the press and fans alike.
Remember Hamilton at Monza last year binning it on the penultimate lap?

Quite. A lot of people called him stupid for doing that, yet people want to see the drivers pushing. I had to defend him and try to explain the driver's mentality to a bunch of friends who saw it and thought he was idiotic.

It's the same hypocrisy from fans and the press when we all say "they're boring", or as in one of my previous comments, "corporate puppets", and when they do something "controversial", we slate them for it!

Ooh, Hamilton's sticking his finger up to Fisichella, tut tut!
Goodness, Barrichello unhappy with his team, how unprofessional of him!
Oh no, Kimi's having an ice cream and a coke? The drivers of old would never do that!



Bah

 

[Brogan]

Oh no, Kimi's having an ice cream and a coke? The drivers of old would never do that!

Indeed.
It would have been a Marlboro and a pit girl instead

 

[Enja]

Oh no, Kimi's having an ice cream and a coke? The drivers of old would never do that!

Indeed.
It would have been a Marlboro and a pit girl instead

Some interesting comments from Frank Dernie on James Allen's blog - check it out.

 

[Muddytalker]

This has turned into a bit of a ranting ramble, or a rambling rant, but here goes...

How are they supposed to create a 20 second gap when they have a car a second in front of them that they can't pass for half the race? 'Trashing' the tyres in that situation would be completely illogical.

To take the first point, almost to a man, all of the drivers said they were being conservative. So they actually had a bit in hand, yes? But they didn't get close as they were conserving. There's more than a few ex-drivers I can think of that would be saying that, I can go quicker than this, I'm going to try and get past. My suggestion is that no-one thought about trying on Sunday. Why? Out of practice? lack of belief/support? No-one's telling. But to say you couldn't get past because of the rules when you yourself were deliberately not getting the most out of your car is somewhat hypocritical. At the risk of joining Team Bernie, I put it to them that they weren't trying as hard as they could.

Sometimes people come up with a lot of guff about how the drivers are a bunch of pansies and that they couldn't manage strategy themselves, they couldn't manage the old turbo cars, they couldn't manage without the aids that they have.. Utter rot
The rules have been designed in such a way that drivers have ridiculously low input on how things are run. People make a similar, misguided, argument about the comparison between GP2 and F1, that somehow the F1 guys aren't as "hungry" or as "bold" as some of the GP2 guys, again, complete nonsense. If they were able to race in close proximity, they would. Drivers seldom change over the eras, they're still as eager as we are to race each other wheel to wheel.
Pit-to-car radio and forms of telemetry should be banned, unless there is a specific incident where they need to inform them of safety issues. It's a huge amount of manpower and money, and it does cuddle the drivers somewhat. They really could do without it.

I don't know if you're replying explicitly to my post, but I've not said that the drivers can't manage a race themselves, or that they couldn't handle previous generation's cars. I'm saying they don't want to take it upon themselves to do so. A part of this is the points system - Points all the way to 10th now? I've said it since the points review was raised, it's breeding mediocrity. It's not particularly all their own fault, but I feel they would rather finish 8th than risk that 8th place for a bit more. This is a function of both the increased reliability, and the reduction in risk-takers. It's a culture shift that needs to happen. If you knew there was a chance that 3 of your rivals wouldn't finish, then you'd take a risk as well. If the expectation of them taking a risk are low, then you won't take the risk either. Hence, part of it is down to themselves.

I agree about banning the radios. Just once, I'd like to hear a driver say "You know what, I was pushing already!", or "I know what I'm doing, I can feel my tyres are still strong and I know I can start pushing in the next few laps, so shut the **** up,". Ok, that's never going to happen, but you get the impression they are driving according to a theoretical simulation, rather than doing something themselves based on what's around them.
And calling them wet whingers? I stand by that - To have a protest about not being allowed your physio on the grid 30 minutes before the start of the race, well what is the physio going to do that he/she hasn't or shouldn't have done already? C'mon guys, get a grip. I believe the current phrasology is to say that they should 'man up'.

If they do risk it, they get slated by the press and fans alike.
Remember Hamilton at Monza last year binning it on the penultimate lap?

Quite. A lot of people called him stupid for doing that, yet people want to see the drivers pushing. I had to defend him and try to explain the driver's mentality to a bunch of friends who saw it and thought he was idiotic.

It's the same hypocrisy from fans and the press when we all say "they're boring", or as in one of my previous comments, "corporate puppets", and when they do something "controversial", we slate them for it!

Ooh, Hamilton's sticking his finger up to Fisichella, tut tut!
Goodness, Barrichello unhappy with his team, how unprofessional of him!
Oh no, Kimi's having an ice cream and a coke? The drivers of old would never do that!

Bah

But what was Hamilton's reaction? "I was racing, trying to win". A lot of people who really understand motor racing cheered and admired him for it. At the moment he's in a minority of perhaps 1 with this attitude, but it's one all the greats had. Better to retire whilst in the lead than trundle round in fifth, if there were more with this attitude then there would be less outcry from the populist press.

 

[Muddytalker]

Oh no, Kimi's having an ice cream and a coke? The drivers of old would never do that!

Indeed.
It would have been a Marlboro and a pit girl instead

Some interesting comments from Frank Dernie on James Allen's blog - check it out.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/

I'm sure Frank is a very knowledgeable guy, but this comment is a bit of a smokescreen, no?

“Here’s the proof (of why increased aero downforce doesn't stop overtaking) – if downforce prevented overtaking, historically the races with the fewest overtaking manoeuvres would have been the wet races, where maximum downforce settings are used…"

That totally ignores the factors of driver skill in the wet, being able to take more than one racing line, and the different grip levels on a wet track, which has less cornering grip. How do we know? Because lap times are slower in the wet, and since cars don't travel any slower in a straightline in the wet than in the dry, time has to be lost in the corners, regardless of there being a steeper wing angle (i.e. more downforce). So, it's the dependance on aerodynamic efficiency that is a major contribution to preventing overtaking, not the downforce levels themselves.

He is correct though in saying that driver mistakes are fewer, which contributed to overtaking, so going back to manual 'boxes, and not having so many changeable settings in the cock-pit would help. Frank suggests harder tyres too, which I don't have a problem with, but would it require getting rid of the 2-compound rule?

Earlier, Frank says

“None of the facts in the last 30 years support the theory that grippy tyres and low downforce promote overtaking. If reducing downforce was the answer, then 1983 would have shown it, since we lost 80% of the aero efficiency in the 1983 rules, ” he says. “But there was no more overtaking than in 1982"

This is being economical with the facts though - Overall downforce was lost through the banning of ground effect, but the wings got bigger, so the wings on top of the car took more precedence in terms of downforce and grip.

IMO this is a prime example of why designers should not be involved in F1technical rules, as they will always have their own interests at heart, and far be it for an aerodynamicist to lay blame at his own work...

 

[snowy]

Also the implication that driver's have been influencing a substantial amount of recent legislation is patently not true. It has been mostly the work of one man: The infadel Max Mosley! Who consistently disregarded everything any F1 driver said!

 

[teabagyokel]

People make a similar, misguided, argument about the comparison between GP2 and F1, that somehow the F1 guys aren't as "hungry" or as "bold" as some of the GP2 guys, again, complete nonsense

The funny thing is we were saying this in about 2006! But they're the same guys! Next year some GP2ites will graduate to F1. Its a feeder series. It feeds!

Its fact that if Prost, Fittipaldi, Keke Rosberg etc. drove in today's climate they'd drive the way today's people do, because that is what would most likely gain success*. Thats how it is. Things change, and at least we haven't got the spoilt arseholes that today's football players are.

And having drivers smoking etc.; would that be a great image for the sport. Also it would undermine the idea that the drivers have to be somehow in shape rather than being darts players. And F1 doesn't need to be criticised as a Mickey Mouse sport, does it?

Anyway, I'm off to post about the death of rugby union after the Calcutta Cup match.

*As for Senna, not sure. Nutter!

 

[Enja]

To take the first point, almost to a man, all of the drivers said they were being conservative. So they actually had a bit in hand, yes? But they didn't get close as they were conserving.

There's more than a few ex-drivers I can think of that would be saying that, I can go quicker than this, I'm going to try and get past. My suggestion is that no-one thought about trying on Sunday.

You really think this didn't occur to anyone? You think the conversations on the radio went like this?

"OK Lewis just stay behind, keep the tyres."
"But I'm faster than him, I can overtake him!"
"No no Lewis, stay behind, stay behind."

"OK Nico, just back off slightly, Hamilton has backed off too."
"But I'm in clean air, I can create a bigger gap to Hamilton!"
"Nico, conserve tyres, conserve tyres. No point in trying. No point. Please confirm."

I think the drivers were doing the best with the current regulations - yes, they did have a bit in hand, you know why? Because they're inexperienced at handling the huge fuel tanks and nobody has learnt very much about the 2010 tyre compounds.

I don't know if you're replying explicitly to my post, but I've not said that the drivers can't manage a race themselves, or that they couldn't handle previous generation's cars. I'm saying they don't want to take it upon themselves to do so.

Partly - I did say, "sometimes" and "people" - not necessarily you. Necessarily.

Eh? "Wet whinging prima donnas" is the phrase you used. It struck me as the kind of comment some rose-tinted Specsavers employee would use to describe how things are so terrible these days.

I'm really not sure what you mean by the last sentence. In fact, I have no idea what you're trying to say. A brief attempt at it ; are you saying the previous generation's drivers were the only ones who would ever say " that, I can go quicker than this, I'm going to try and get past." ?

Another - completely illogical - way of looking at that last sentence would be to take it as the drivers have access to some glorious time machine where they can drive and live in the 80s, but choose not to.

Either way - I think you're wrong to assume that when presented with the chance to push like crazy, the modern drivers choose not to. There are undoubtedly some situations where the drivers could do more, Sunday may have been one of them - mostly, in my view, down to the fact that they are all still learning about the implications of the refueling ban and the 2010 tyres.

A part of this is the points system - Points all the way to 10th now? I've said it since the points review was raised, it's breeding mediocrity.

Yes. The more and more I think about it, being in the low points finishes is seemingly infinitely better than pushing for the top 6 or whatever points structure you want in place. Bernie was wrong about the medal system, but he may have had - shockingly - some point about the lower finish positions, they are too greatly rewarded.

It's not particularly all their own fault, but I feel they would rather finish 8th than risk that 8th place for a bit more. This is a function of both the increased reliability, and the reduction in risk-takers. It's a culture shift that needs to happen. If you knew there was a chance that 3 of your rivals wouldn't finish, then you'd take a risk as well. If the expectation of them taking a risk are low, then you won't take the risk either. Hence, part of it is down to themselves.

It also comes down to their belief - and ours - that the cars can't physically get close enough. They may close to within a second or two, but then find, hey, from experience, I know it is hard to overtake : why risk it?

Having a set of regulations that allowed for closer racing would inspire and motivate both fans and drivers.

Agreed about the reliability - they are not stretching the limits of performance any more because of over-regulation. It seems as simple as that.

And calling them wet whingers? I stand by that - To have a protest about not being allowed your physio on the grid 30 minutes before the start of the race, well what is the physio going to do that he/she hasn't or shouldn't have done already? C'mon guys, get a grip. I believe the current phrasology is to say that they should 'man up'.

While I agree with you on the idea that it seems a bit of an overreaction regarding the physios, if it means we get the drivers back on the grid before a race, then maybe it has to be done for the short term...

But what was Hamilton's reaction? "I was racing, trying to win". A lot of people who really understand motor racing cheered and admired him for it. At the moment he's in a minority of perhaps 1 with this attitude, but it's one all the greats had. Better to retire whilst in the lead than trundle round in fifth, if there were more with this attitude then there would be less outcry from the populist press.

It is a shame about the people who don't understand this mentality. I guess it's why some people 'get' racing - and I don't just mean motor racing - and some don't.

 

[Muddytalker]

Ok, well some things we agree on, some things, let's just say I'm not as convinced as yourself that the drivers are fully playing their part. Let's leave it at that, and see what the next few races bring.

 

[Enja]

Very well, sir. In short, I hope we see some truly epic battles. I bid you

 

[teabagyokel]

To have a protest about not being allowed your physio on the grid 30 minutes before the start of the race, well what is the physio going to do that he/she hasn't or shouldn't have done already?

I see the reason for the protest! The drivers are not allowed to bring their staff (as it were) on to the grid in order to attempt to win the race, but allowed on the grid are random celebrities, the Prime Minister of Whereverland and Nigel Mansell. Its like saying that in cricket the coach is not allowed in the pavillion but Lily Allen, Geoffrey Boycott and Gordon Brown are! Its bloody stupid! The team members should be the first people allowed on and the random celebs and sponsors should be allowed there if and only if they have enough room.

It is just Bernie taking loads of money from people who don't need to be there to the detriment of the people who ultimately matter, the drivers! The guests in the Royal Box at Wimbledon content themselves with remaining in the Royal Box, don't they?

 

[Brogan]

Maybe Physios have been banned after a certain incident in Hungary 2007

 

[teabagyokel]

That wasn't on the grid! They're not banned from the pit wall, are they?

 

[Muddytalker]

To have a protest about not being allowed your physio on the grid 30 minutes before the start of the race, well what is the physio going to do that he/she hasn't or shouldn't have done already?

I see the reason for the protest! The drivers are not allowed to bring their staff (as it were) on to the grid in order to attempt to win the race, but allowed on the grid are random celebrities, the Prime Minister of Whereverland and Nigel Mansell. Its like saying that in cricket the coach is not allowed in the pavillion but Lily Allen, Geoffrey Boycott and Gordon Brown are! Its bloody stupid! The team members should be the first people allowed on and the random celebs and sponsors should be allowed there if and only if they have enough room.

It is just Bernie taking loads of money from people who don't need to be there to the detriment of the people who ultimately matter, the drivers! The guests in the Royal Box at Wimbledon content themselves with remaining in the Royal Box, don't they?

Not really though; it's like saying Lily Allen is allowed on the pitch, but the trainer isn't. But in cricket, the trainer wouldn't go on the pitch anyway, he'd be in the pavillion, which translates to being in the pits which is where the physios are allowed to be. That's not to say the celebs/hangers on should be there, either. I would limit the grid to
a) Drivers
b) 8 Team personel (4 for each driver - Electronics checker, hydraulics/fluids checker, tyres checker, lead race engineer)
c) Grid dollies (Only if they must insist on pandering to the masses. Seriously, we can do without them now, surely.)

Any interviews can be done either on the grid or 30 mins before in the paddock. Most of the time is spent doing interviews anyway, so what do the physios do, exactly?

 

[teabagyokel]

If you remove the hangers-on, I'd be OK with removing the physios, but I suspect Greedy has kicked the physios off the grid so the Sheikh of Abu-Somewhere has a chance to join the grid!

 

[genji]

.

Kovalainen proposes blue flag ban

Well, he would wouldn't he. I think blue flags should be banned, but perhaps this year, with the news teams being as slow as they are, it might not be the safest thing to do.

 

[teabagyokel]

Tradition dictates you don't need a blue flag to pass Kovalainen... in a McLaren!

 

[cider_and_toast]

Surely if we've learnt anything from "Quantative easing" it's that this whole issue could just be solved by printing more passes !!!