Those who said "NO!"

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
One of the questions that has cropped up several times in the last couple of days is why didn't Massa, or indeed any driver who looks all sullen and sad after being told to move aside for his team mate, turn around to his team and say no.

This thread looks at 3 drivers drivers who did just that and the consequences of those decisions. If anybody knows any other incidences where a driver has given it "sorry, say again, you're braking up. I can't here you, we seem to be having radio problems........." in response to a team order. (or words to that effect) then add them to the list.

Carlos Reutemann - 1981 Brazilian GP: Given that 6 years later Williams would let Piquet and Mansell knock chunks out of each other on the track it would seem that this team order was out of character coming as it did, in only the second race of the season. Alan Jones had already won the opening race of the season and at Brazil, Jones was sitting in second place behind his team mate when the call came through to Reutemann to let him through. Reutemann ignored the order and went on to win the race while Jones came home in second. The relationship between the two drivers fell apart and was arguably responsible for neither winning the drivers title that year. That said if nothing else changed the result of the team order had it taken place would have seen Jones instead of Reutemann finish runner up in the championship to Nelson Piquet by a single point.

Didier Pironi - 1982 San Marino GP: This race saw the mother of all team order disobeying and forms part of one of Formula One's biggest "What If's". The 82 San Marino GP saw the bulk of the FOCA backed teams boycott the race in the on going dispute with FISA for the control of F1. As a result there were only 2 cars likely to win the race and that was either Didier Pironi or Gilles Villeneuve in the Ferrari's. With a handful of laps to go and with Villeneuve leading a Ferrari one-two, the Ferrari pit wall hung out the "Slow" signs in order to get their drivers to back off and bring the cars home. Villeneuve duly slowed however Pironi kept on going like a freight train and eventually passed Villeneuve for the lead. Gilles is said to have believed that Pironi was putting on a show in the last few laps for a crowd that had been denied a race. Giving it a lap or two Villeneuve re-passed Pironi and once again the Ferrari pit wall hung out signs telling their drivers to slow which again Villeneuve did, quite considerably. Once again and with a lap to go, Pironi re-passed Villeneuve and vanished up the road. Gilles had no opportunity to re-pass and that was the order at the chequered flag. As we know Villeneuve vowed never to speak to Pironi again and just two weeks later was killed while on a banzai lap on a rapidly dampening track at Zolder in what was believed to be a red mist attempt to out qualify Pironi. It's almost impossible to speculate what would have happened if Pironi had obeyed the "Slow" sign and held station behind his team mate. Would Villeneuve have won the title?? It's impossible to say. Pironi survived a huge shunt that ended his racing career later that season and as a result of missing the last 5 races slipped from the lead to second in the championship.

3. Rene Arnoux - 1982 French GP: As we know the 1982 Formula one season was a season like no other. Any number of drivers were in a position to take the title with 11 different race winners. Arnoux and Prost were in their second season together at Renault and where once Arnoux could consider himself to be the team number 1, since the arrival of Prost it was clear who the actual number one in the team was. Prost had won the opening two races of the 1982 season but thanks to the woeful reliability of the Renault Turbo he'd only managed one further points finish prior to the French GP. Arnoux had only one third place to his name and no other points finished. With Arnoux on poll for the race and Prost second and with Prost still mathematically in with a chance of winning the title it was alleged that the team agreed Arnoux should cede the win to Prost if they were in a position to do so. The two cars lapped one and two for almost the entire race while Prost waited for Arnoux to move over. Of course Arnoux never did and after scoring the first 1-2 finish in Renaults history he denied there had been any conversation about team orders between the two of them. A fact that Prost disputes to this day. If the team orders had stood and Arnoux had let Prost pass the result on the final championship table would still see Prost in 4th however he would have been 2 points of 2nd not 5.

Anyone know of any other drivers who have said "NO!" ??
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
Good article c_a_t. I'm sure there are other examples to be had.

I saw this on Brundle's post race piece on the BBC's website,

"I've seen a lot of this team strategy business and my strong advice to any established driver is to simply ignore the request, win the race, and handle the nuclear fallout afterwards. Otherwise you self-esteem and public credibility are finished. Mark Webber has a good handle on this, I would say."

Is this a "coded" suggestion that Mark has already had to say no?

Brundle also goes on to say,

"I played the sportsmanlike and balanced role in my career because that's my nature, like Massa, and I significantly underperformed my potential. I could have done with some Schumacher and Alonso unreasonableness."

The difference between being a champion or not?
 

MajorDanby

Motorsports' answer to Eric the Eel
Contributor
Nice CaT,

To echo Jenov slightly, I was also thinking about whether MW had already been forced to say No! in Turkey.

I wonder how many times this has happened, and it has just been swept under the radar. As has been shown in the last week, it has been hard enough for a team to come out and admit that they have told one of their drivers to let the other past.

I can't imagine it being publicised at all if a team (RedBull) had ordered a driver (Mark Webber) to cede a position in a race (Turkey), and the driver (Mark Webber) refused to give up his place.

Possibly a reason why everyone in the the RedBull team were so eager to blame Mark for the crash that obviously wasn't his fault.

Did Vettel turn right into Mark because he was under the mistaken impression from his team that Mark was going to let Vettel by?
 

Grizzly

Bear
Contributor
MajorDanby said:
Nice CaT,

To echo Jenov slightly, I was also thinking about whether MW had already been forced to say No! in Turkey.

I wonder how many times this has happened, and it has just been swept under the radar. As has been shown in the last week, it has been hard enough for a team to come out and admit that they have told one of their drivers to let the other past.

I can't imagine it being publicised at all if a team (RedBull) had ordered a driver (Mark Webber) to cede a position in a race (Turkey), and the driver (Mark Webber) refused to give up his place.

Possibly a reason why everyone in the the RedBull team were so eager to blame Mark for the crash that obviously wasn't his fault.

Did Vettel turn right into Mark because he was under the mistaken impression from his team that Mark was going to let Vettel by?
That was my instant thoughts as it unfolded before us, but we never got to hear RBs radio calls did we...
 

Bullfrog

Rookie
The difference with this weekend may well be the contract, out of all the examples given I think Massa is the most likely to have a no.2 clause in his somewhere.
 

Wee Scot

Rookie
One more instance:

Pete Aron refused to let his teammate, Scott Stoddard, past in the 196X Monaco Grand Prix, and Stoddard was trying to lap him! They crashed, Stoddard ended up in the hospital, and Aron lost his ride but went on to win the championship with Yamura.

:snigger:
 

dave

Rookie
What i think people missed with the Massa incident is that he and Smedley may have intended the instruction to be obvious, because as a team, if that situation rose again who would ask Massa to move out the way again. So maybe Massa answered 'just this once, but not again'

Back on topic, I do think saying no to the team is dangerous as in some situations the driver will have enough power in the team to say no and not get dropped from the team or pushed out. This may happen at teams lower down the grid and the rason for someone leaving is just said to be financial.

Some drivers however, will be able to say no and remain at a team without it ever being mentioned again as they could go to a rival team and win titles.
 

JamesHunt

Rookie
Wee Scot said:
One more instance:

Pete Aron refused to let his teammate, Scott Stoddard, past in the 196X Monaco Grand Prix, and Stoddard was trying to lap him! They crashed, Stoddard ended up in the hospital, and Aron lost his ride but went on to win the championship with Yamura.

:snigger:
Nice.....I got a laugh from that one.
 

Wombcat

Podium Finisher
I once read a quote of Jackie Stewart about his first win, where he passed his teammate for the lead in the last lap. He said that returing back to the pits wasn't really the happiest moment of his live (or something alike).

In 1973 Peterson won on Monza, while Fittipaldi was 2nd. This meant Stewart became WDC. According to Ullrich Schwabs' "Grand Prix 1973" Chapman never gave the order to Peterson to let Fittipaldi pass. But I've read somewhere else that Peterson was listed as one of the driver who ignored teamorders, so maybe teamorders weere involved.
If Fittipaldi would have won Monza, he still would have had a mathematical chance of reclaiming his title (after this race Stewart had 69 points. If Fittipaldi had won, he would have been able to score 69 as well. Had he won the last two and Stewart would have scored no points, Fittipaldi would have been champion because he won 6 races and Stewart 5). So it would have made some sense for Lotus to have given teamorders.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
You have forgotten the obvious, cat.

In qualifying for the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix, Lewis Hamilton was supposed to let Fernando Alonso through in Q3 but did not because he thought he would hence let Kimi Raikkonen through as well. (He probably would, but its qualifying - so what! :dunno: )

This put the two drivers out of sequence and led to a calculated act of revenge from the two-time Champion (sorry, he was making an enquiry about tyres! Something that you couldn't do over the radio, I'm sure.) who essentially broke team orders by stopping Hamilton getting out of the pits for his final lap.

McLaren were (irrelevantly) docked all of their Constructors' points for Hungary for some reason and Alonso was deducted 5 places on the grid.

Alonso then grassed on his own team to the FIA for using Ferrari data (because no-one copies anything off anyone else in F1) and McLaren were thrown out of the WCC (which was apparently lenient). It led to Alonso's leaving the team belatedly at the end of the season (belatedly because I'd have sacked him on the spot for pulling that particular stunt.)

The only occasion where both a team ignored orders (LH: Fernando. Is. Faster. Than. You. and FA: Your. Pit. Stop. Is. Complete.) and of course it ended in a complete team implosion.
 

MCLS

Anti F1 fan
Valued Member
Spa 1998, Hill refused to let Schumacher past, i think they touched on that on the buildup to the Hungarian GP on the BBC with Eddie Jordan
 

AlexM

Points Scorer
Contributor
McLarenSupremo said:
Spa 1998, Hill refused to let Schumacher past, i think they touched on that on the buildup to the Hungarian GP on the BBC with Eddie Jordan
I think the team order was for Schumacher NOT to overtake, as Damon said they'd probably run each other off the road. LOL Ralph didn't even try, even though he was much faster.
 

MCLS

Anti F1 fan
Valued Member
I think from the radio transmission, Hill was told that Schumacher was faster than him (a la Smedley) and to let him through, Hill said that they could have a 1-2 as long as they didnt race (Hill/Schumacher) and if they did there would be a crash, then Schumacher was told a few seconds later not to overtake Hill
 

racecub

Champion Elect
There was a lot going on that day at Spa. The weather was foul, Jordan were heading for their first win, and a one two at that, and if it were'nt for the safety car Damon would have been safely down the road.He'd pulled a huge lead over Ralf if I remember it correctly and lost it all with the safety car. I believe he said something like -we can race if you want us to but we risk goling off; at that they were called off.
 

Flood1

Rookie
I don't have anything to add at the moment, but those are interesting stories. I didn't remember most of them until reading these posts. :thumbsup:
 
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