The 2012 Season

[Il_leone]

I thought that Il Leone was excluding Ferrari from his count. It is also unlikely that we will see the exact conditions again that we saw last weekend, it would be nice though to have a team which has never won an F1 race doing so.

I am excluding Ferrari from the count because its clear the Ferrari seems to be good on full tanks to the others in the dry in Alonso's hands but when the car seems to lose grip very quickly and drops off the pace in latter stages

This was evident in Melbourne when Alonso had to keep Maldonado behind and then in Malaysia where Perez was closing on him

Alonso's skill will help him win races he should not but even he realistically has said Ferrari have a lot of work to do ..more than Mercedes

Alonso is barely scrapping into the top 10 and his dry lap in quali as over 1 second slower than the Mclarens

 

[Kewee]

At the moment Mclaren, Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes... their tyre wear issue can't be a permanent problem and I think on circuits with long straights spa and Monza they will be more of a threat like last year

You didn't mention Ferrari. They already are race winners this year. If their revised car brings the improvement they're searching for Alonso could become the driver to beat. He's managing to lead the championship in a car with a similar performance level to a No. 10 double decker bus.

 

[Il_leone]

Let's use Ferrari as an example as well then. That gives us three teams where the driver line-ups have been consistent but the pace in qualli has moved to one side of the garage. OK, Massa was getting trounced by Alonso last year but he was there, thereabouts, or ahead in qualifying. Now, he is not even in sight. remember that Massa's almost championship winning year was when the car was covered in downforce generating winglets, too, which suggests that he likes a planted car, as does Reosberg and Vettel.

The difference at McLaren is that they have clawed back more downforce than the other teams and so are suffering less variance as a result of the new regs.

I don't think it is too far a stretch to say that drivers have different driving styles which are more suited to different technical regulations and the car characteristics that come with them.

I won't argue my other points to death because I think that what we have seen in terms of indicators for the season are open to interpretation and I'm happy with mine, whilst tentatively acceptant of yours.

I am adamant the EBD and possibly the flexi wing played into Vettel's hands coupled with the DRS that helps them generate more downforce in medium to high speed corners

Take away the EBD and look at the gap between Vettel and Webber from 0.7 seconds a lap in Vettel's favour to 0.1 seconds in favour of Webber

Webber has said he likes the Red Bull this year more

The one of other factor was Webber's inability to get heat quickly into the tyres sooner than Vettel last year and that he seems to overcome because he spent more than half a season before adjusting to the Pirelli's last year

The EBD was the biggest contributor to Red Bull's advantage last year...its very odd to think the one time where they tried to ban it Silverstone last year Ferrari were the quickest team but have dropped off further whereas Mclaren who supposedly suffered most at SIlverstone last year are now the pace setters

 

[Il_leone]

You didn't mention Ferrari. They already are race winners this year. If their revised car brings the improvement they're searching for Alonso could become the driver to beat. He's managing to lead the championship in a car with a similar performance level to a No. 10 double decker bus.

see previous quotes I don;t mention Ferrari but Alonso because he is making up for the deficiency in the car they were 1 second a lap slower than the Mclaren

I think odd ball races like Canada and Monaco might give them a sniff of victory if Alonso is on form

 

[RasputinLives]

Let's use Ferrari as an example as well then. That gives us three teams where the driver line-ups have been consistent but the pace in qualli has moved to one side of the garage. OK, Massa was getting trounced by Alonso last year but he was there, thereabouts, or ahead in qualifying. Now, he is not even in sight. remember that Massa's almost championship winning year was when the car was covered in downforce generating winglets, too, which suggests that he likes a planted car, as does Reosberg and Vettel.

But that Ferrari has been shown to be god-dam awful so not sure its the best example and Massa was only 2 tennths slower than Fernando in Malaysia so to me thats situation normal, If anything Massa was closer than he usually is. Ferrari are the perfect example for me of why I'm not sure the EBD has made a hell of a lot of difference. We had one race without it last year and Ferrari were the quickest car yet they turn up this season not able to compete. Seems an odd one to me

 

[RasputinLives]

Take away the EBD and look at the gap between Vettel and Webber from 0.7 seconds a lap in Vettel's favour to 0.1 seconds in favour of Webber

I think you can't start doing stats like that with just 2 races gone. I'll keep an open eye on it and admit if I think I'm wrong but the evidence with other drivers just doesn't seem to be there. For me I think Webber was just off form last season and Seb was on it where as for the first 2 races this year Webber seems more on it than Seb. My point remains he's still not beating him though so I still think the most likely Red Bull victory will be scored by Vettel.

 

[Il_leone]

But that Ferrari has been shown to be god-dam awful so not sure its the best example and Massa was only 2 tennths slower than Fernando in Malaysia so to me thats situation normal, If anything Massa was closer than he usually is. Ferrari are the perfect example for me of why I'm not sure the EBD has made a hell of a lot of difference. We had one race without it last year and Ferrari were the quickest car yet they turn up this season not able to compete. Seems an odd one to me

Ferrari said they want to try a radical overhaul design which is the right thing to do but they seemed to have looked in the wrong areas.

In the same race Mclaren were suppose to be the team that suffered more at Silverstone but this year without EBD they are the pace setters

Look at Red Bull who were pace setters and Vettel - they can;t get the 1 lap speed advantage they had from the EBD . Also Red Bull seems to suffer most from the same problem as previous years when in traffic their aerodynamics are more disturbed than other cars

I have to say Mclaren did their homework because everyone else was trying the platypus nose was the way but Mclaren did not and there was some saying they would lose out slight advantage. Based on the first two races they've been justified in their design so far

 

[ExtremeNinja]

But that Ferrari has been shown to be god-dam awful so not sure its the best example and Massa was only 2 tennths slower than Fernando in Malaysia so to me thats situation normal, If anything Massa was closer than he usually is. Ferrari are the perfect example for me of why I'm not sure the EBD has made a hell of a lot of difference. We had one race without it last year and Ferrari were the quickest car yet they turn up this season not able to compete. Seems an odd one to me

There has certainly been much talk of this and it is certainly crap in qualli, but on Raceday it has shown itself to be a match for anything other than the McLaren, and in fact, more than a match when the rain comes down. The Ferrari is not as bad as everyone is making out. I think it is easy to say that when there is so much spin backing it up, but the laptimes on long-runs and in race-trim tell a different story. We'll know soon how their season is going to pan out, but at the moment, only one of their cars is struggling and you have to say that the problem is in the cockpit. No, the Ferrari is not the fastest car on the grid but it is certainly able to fight with the other cars just behind the leaders, of which there are many at a similar pace.

Compare the Ferrari with the Merc. Would you rather have great qualifying speed and crap race pace or crap qualifying speed and good race pace. Ferrari, in my opinion, are in a much better place to win races than Mercedes are. They are going to have to fight Lotus and Red Bull for them vistories though and, as we have seen, a good drive and circumstances will put them in front of the McLarens too.

Alonso is great, but the Ferrari is not shit.

 

[Kewee]

Let's use Ferrari as an example as well then. That gives us three teams where the driver line-ups have been consistent but the pace in qualli has moved to one side of the garage. OK, Massa was getting trounced by Alonso last year but he was there, thereabouts, or ahead in qualifying. Now, he is not even in sight. remember that Massa's almost championship winning year was when the car was covered in downforce generating winglets, too, which suggests that he likes a planted car, as does Reosberg and Vettel.

The difference at McLaren is that they have clawed back more downforce than the other teams and so are suffering less variance as a result of the new regs.

I don't think it is too far a stretch to say that drivers have different driving styles which are more suited to different technical regulations and the car characteristics that come with them.

I won't argue my other points to death because I think that what we have seen in terms of indicators for the season are open to interpretation and I'm happy with mine, whilst tentatively acceptant of yours.

Your right in part about a drivers style being more suited to different technical regulations and this certainly applies to most of the field, but there are two or three drivers at the top of their game that are able to adopt their driving style to suit the car. Alonso for one is able to make subtle changes to his driving style and a cars set up to compensate, which is why so often he's able to get more out of a car than it deserves. I won't get into naming other drivers that fall into this category as it's not my intention to point score one driver against another.

 

[RasputinLives]

Alonso is great, but the Ferrari is not shit.

No but in normal racing conditions even a Ferrari with Alonso at the controls is half a second to a second a lap slower than the Red Bulls so why some can have the view Red Bull won't score any wins baffles me.

 

[ecclestoned]

Well if Webber wins all the races I'll be on that bridge flapping in the wind so I think you meant you hope Vettel does!

You're right ,that's what I meant,now I've ended up embarrassing myself

 

[Kewee]

see previous quotes I don;t mention Ferrari but Alonso because he is making up for the deficiency in the car they were 1 second a lap slower than the Mclaren

I think odd ball races like Canada and Monaco might give them a sniff of victory if Alonso is on form

By Canada and Monaco it's my bet the Ferrari will be transformed and Alonso won't need to make up for deficiencies in the car.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

Your right in part about a drivers style being more suited to different technical regulations and this certainly applies to most of the field, but there are two or three drivers at the top of their game that are able to adopt their driving style to suit the car. Alonso for one is able to make subtle changes to his driving style and a cars set up to compensate, which is why so often he's able to get more out of a car than it deserves. I won't get into naming other drivers that fall into this category as it's not my intention to point score one driver against another.

I absolutely agree. Alsonso is the most formidable force at the moment. Given the right equipment and circumstances, he is proving that he will achieve whatever potential is there. It's lucky for everyone else that his car s slightly lacking in the race and is not capable of challenging the front of the grid on Saturdays.

 

[Kewee]

I absolutely agree. Alsonso is the most formidable force at the moment. Given the right equipment and circumstances, he is proving that he will achieve whatever potential is there. It's lucky for everyone else that his car s slightly lacking in the race and is not capable of challenging the front of the grid on Saturdays.

He will soon Ninja. Off to bed now mate. I'll log in when I wake up to see what you've been up to.

 

[ExtremeNinja]

No but in normal racing conditions even a Ferrari with Alonso at the controls is half a second to a second a lap slower than the Red Bulls so why some can have the view Red Bull won't score any wins baffles me.

I don't think that at all. I just think that at the moment Kimi in the Lotus or Mark in the Red Bull is more likely to achieve a win than Vettel in a Red Bull - and all of those guys are less likely to achieve a win than Lewis or Jenson in a McLaren. Form will change as the season goes on, for both the teams and he drivers, but I won't guess at that. I can only go on what I have seen. Anything else is breezy speculation.

 

[Il_leone]

No but in normal racing conditions even a Ferrari with Alonso at the controls is half a second to a second a lap slower than the Red Bulls so why some can have the view Red Bull won't score any wins baffles me.

its not they wont it is just that they will not run away with Vettel off the line into the distance like last year and Horner coming on afterwards to the BBC being a smug

 

[Il_leone]

By Canada and Monaco it's my bet the Ferrari will be transformed and Alonso won't need to make up for deficiencies in the car.

Can't be sure because last year Alonso deliberately made the point the Ferrari was poor in Spain despite leading for the first half of the race and then dropping like a stone when switching to hard tyres

Especially if Ferrari don;t know where to fix the problem as they have done in the past although Pat Fry is a very abled and experienced engineer he's got his work cut out

I say MOnaco and Canada because they tend to produce odd ball results and races

 

[Il_leone]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17550940

I was not sure which thread to post this but here is Narain's response to cry baby Vettel

 

[ExtremeNinja]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17550940

I was not sure which thread to post this but here is Narain's response to cry baby Vettel

Storm in a teacup, I'm sure, but...

http://www.themotorreport.com.au/53831/f1-vettel-risks-penalty-massa-summoned-to-maranello

 

[RasputinLives]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17550940

I was not sure which thread to post this but here is Narain's response to cry baby Vettel

Its already over on the Narain thread. I think he comes across quite well in it.