Suzuka 2009

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
nando has explained what happened:

I was called by the stewards because I had a green second sector under yellow flags. I explained that coming out of turn 14 I had little visibility because of the dust left from Buemi spinning into the gravel ...then I saw debris of a wing in the middle of the track, which I avoided and at that point I saw the yellow flag and immediately slowed down and came carefully into the pits.
 

GeoffP

Wake me when we’re there
Contributor
Well, I guess them's the rules. Not a nice result, but bland enforcement of the rules is what we often cry out for, so musn't grumble...

I guess my gripe would be that maybe when a qualifying session is red flagged the session should have a lap time +10% added to it in order to ensure that driver's qualification was not effected by an incident in which they were not involved. But that's a sort of forward looking idea.
 

bogaTYR

Points Scorer
here is the verdict and the grid as it stands now

The stewards ruled that Button, Barrichello, Alonso and Sutil had all failed to slow down under waved yellow flags in the wake of Buemi's Q2 accident.

The four drivers were all handed five-grid slot penalties, which means the two Championship rivals, Barrichello and Button, will now start P9 and P11 respectively.

Brawn GP boss Ross Brawn conceded his drivers did not slow down. "No, they swerved to avoid the problem. But they didn't lift off, no," he said.

Alonso, who earlier defended himself saying he did slow down, will start 17th on the grid while Sutil will drop from fourth to eighth.

Meanwhile, Buemi was reprimanded by the stewards for driving back to the pits with a damaged car, which he did in the wake of his accident. He too was handed a five-grid slot penalty.

Other penalties this weekend include Tonio Liuzzi's five-grid slot penalty for changing his gearbox.

Pos Driver Team
1. Vettel Red Bull-Renault
2. Trulli Toyota
3. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes
4. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber
5. Raikkonen Ferrari
6. Rosberg Williams-Toyota
7. Kubica BMW-Sauber
8. Sutil Force India-Mercedes *
9. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes *
10. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari
11. Button Brawn-Mercedes *
12. Fisichella Ferrari
13. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes **
14. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari *
15. Nakajima Williams-Toyota
16. Grosjean Renault
17. Alonso Renault *
18. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes **
19. Glock Toyota ***
20. Webber Red Bull-Renault ***

* Five-place grid penalty
** Five-place grid penalty for changing gearbox
*** Will use new chassis so will start from the pitlane
 

FB

Not my cup of cake
Valued Member
That may well keep the Championship battle going on for a bit longer, assuming Vettel the car breaker controls himself.
 

Brogan

Legend
Staff Member
Well I predicted that as soon as I saw it.
The rules are clear - you have to lift off through a yellow flag sector.
 

McZiderRed

Champion Elect
Supporter
I thought it was strange that the Brawns stayed in the garage for so long, before posting a time in Q3. Was there a particular reason that they decided to maximise the pressure, by leaving it so that they only had time for one lap at the end? I suppose Brawn treated both drivers equally, by having both cars on track at the same time, so they were both disadvantaged by the same incident. ;)
 

GeoffP

Wake me when we’re there
Contributor
I think with the times falling Ross et al wanted to be as late on the track as possible, it's a style they have used frequently, unfortunately because of the poor set up due to rain, lack of track experiance and the assumption of safety provided by many modern tracks - luck was just pushed too far by too many drivers.

Maybe, in addition to my comment about extending qualifying times, maybe if a driver disrupts qualifying due to driver error there should also be a penalty of some nature :dunno:
 
I can't believe how much that McLaren has improved in the fast corners, even since Spa when it was nowhere. Also really surprised that the Ferrari can still compete (with the help of some penalties and crashes sure but you gotta be in it to benefit) even though they have stopped development.

Great to see Suzuka back, a tack which sorts the men from the boys and punishes those boys harshly. A refreshing change to see a track where the driver can make the difference rather than it all being about the engineers getting it right like on the majority of Tiilke's tracks.

Disaster for the Brawns again but I reckon if today is anything to go by then the experience of the drivers should help them make up plenty of places through others crashing out and safety car periods.

Tough to pick a winner but (surprise) I reckon Lewis will get it, he has a bit of a point to prove IMO and that McLaren is very reliable while Vettel could easily blow an engine and Trulli will get swallowed by the KERS into turn one. Any good weather reports for race day?

I have a feeling Suzuka 2009 could head onto the top 10 races of the decade list, dunno why but I just can't shake the feeling that it is going to be a classic.
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
I was worried during quali, I had it on record, and with each successive red flag I saw my time remaining dwindle!

It was a bit chaotic, wasn't it? And now we find penalties for Barrichello and Button (no-brainers), Sutil (binned a great session) and Alonso ( ) as well as that Swiss plonker Buemi. At one point it seemed the top 10 would be decided by attrition!

So, to put it simply, Button isn't going to win the Championship this week, I can't see him coming 4th, but it looks very good for the two Germans, Vettel and Heidfeld. Starting 4th with that fuelload will be a dream for BMW that they never would have got without other people deciding that yellow-flag zones are for acceleration.

Buemi has balked half the grid, with the most hilarious, of course, being Alonso who accelerated through the yellow-flag zone and still missed Q3, essentially putting him in a missed Q1 position. From that position I can see no way whatsoever Renault can win this race, although there may be an early Safety Car...
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
FB said:
That may well keep the Championship battle going on for a bit longer......

I think that was the intention of the new hair-brained idea that all "crashed" drivers remain in their car until the doctor arrives. It ensures a red flag or a SC and, in qualifying, it also ensures that some drivers who are keen to post a qualifying time are caught by the flags.

Max and/or Bernie contriving the outcome of the WDC, if not the WCC - only Flav exceeded their manipulation.
 

RickD

Pole Sitter
Well, glad I recorded that instead of getting up to watch it, the FIA are clearly trying to change the outcomes of races.

How can a green sector not be set when you have not set a timein that sector for a session?
 

teabagyokel

#dejavu
Valued Member
I reckon its a conspiracy because I have been posting a Qualifying World Championship on this site and I have been posting that I don't like Max. It was all done so I wouldn't have a bloody clue who was starting where by Saturday afternoon.

OK, that might be a teensy bit arrogant but why can they not post a finalised grid? The BBC has Jaime Alguersuari in 8th, and I'm sure that can't be right! Who's 5 place drops take priority? Nico Rosberg went out in Q2 and possibly starts 6th, Fisichella is in the midfield!

By the way, the claim is that Fernando Alonso accelerated through the yellow-flag zone and slowed down till he got to the T2 line. If that is true, it is a clear indication of the cynicism of the man!

The BBC also have Mark Webber qualified down in 18th, with Liuzzi behind him (and Glock). If Glock starts, surely Webber should be behind him as he didn't qualify...

If anyone can find any FIA rules saying how the penalties should be applied, and in which order, that would be great!
 

Brogan

Legend
Staff Member
Penalties are applied in order of the offence being committed.

The FIA will be publishing a final grid tomorrow morning.
 

GeoffP

Wake me when we’re there
Contributor
I really don't think the grid penalties will do squat to keep the championship alive.

Realistically Vettel has to win every one of the last three races to get even close, so hands up who wants to be near Mr Shit or Bust, what with his recent history of "Steady as you Go" ROFL


Oh, but Seb will alomost certainly need a new engine, so he probably will manage two wins and a third at best, so Jenson only needs one more point to beat him, even if no one else gets in the way. :nah:

Rubens has to score 5.33 more points than Jenson on average in each race, if he doesn't get onto the podium in each race, that's not really going to happen, and ideally he needs 1st or 2nd to have bigger point drops behind him. Therefore getting a five place drop on the grid is going to be like Christmas to Jenson, again, all he has to do is follow Rubens within a car or two and his position strengthens.

Personally I think that this penalty will encourage Jenson to play the odds rather than to wrap the championship up and race hard. Bit of a bottomer for those of us wanting to watch a race.
 

sobriety

Race Winner
I think that was the intention of the new hair-brained idea that all "crashed" drivers remain in their car until the doctor arrives.

Where did that come from? And is it going to apply next year when someone drops it on the first turn with a large tank of rather flammable stuff behind them?

I can see the headlines now 'Driver x handed a 10 place grid drop at the next GP for escaping a firey death'. The mind boggles... :givemestrength:
 

Brogan

Legend
Staff Member
This is the revised grid.

It would seem Button has really lost out.

Pos  Driver                             Weight (kg)
1. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 658.5
2. Trulli Toyota 655.5
3. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 656.0
4. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 660.0
5. Raikkonen Ferrari 661.0
6. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 660.5 *
7. Rosberg Williams-Toyota 684.5
8. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 650.0 *
9. Kubica BMW-Sauber 686.0
10. Button Brawn-Mercedes 658.5 *
11. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 675.0 **
12. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 682.5
13. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 665.4 *
14. Fisichella Ferrari 661.5
15. Nakajima Williams-Toyota 695.7
16. Alonso Renault 689.5 *
17. Grosjean Renault 691.8
18. Liuzzi Force India-Mercedes 682.5 **
19. Webber Red Bull-Renault - ***
20. Glock Toyota - ****

* Five-place grid penalty
** Five-place grid penalty for changing gearbox
*** New chassis so will start from the pitlane
**** Will not start due to injury

As Barrichello committed his offence before Button and Sutil he has effectively only lost 1 place

Now I'm no steward but for 1 guy to be demoted only 1 place from 5th to 6th and yet another from 7th to 10th doesn't seem fair somehow.
 

GeoffP

Wake me when we’re there
Contributor
OK, I take it back, it is a big fix...

After the race Button claimed that Rosberg illegally set his best sector time under the late safety flag.

And though stewards from governing body the FIA found Rosberg had exceeded the speed limit during that period, they decided to take no action because telemetry data proved the German was "prevented from being able to accurately follow timing information".

So, Vettel's telemettry didn't matter in Singapore;

the grid penalties had to be planned out exactly in order as a result of Buemi's crash (btw I still don't get when there are NO comparative times and the drivers say they did lift... ) in order to mix the grid up in fafour of extending the championship fight exactly follow the letter of the rules;

and yet, Rosberg isn't penalised because his telemmetry didn't allow him to accurately follow timing information. Are the race stewards going to take the penalty as someone must be responsible for the error, and they've said it's not Rosberg or Williams.


To be honest, I'm glad there isn'e a change and disappointed that it seems to be Buttong calling for it, But let's be fair, I haven't liked many of the penalties recently, but you either follow the rule book, or don't, and I was getting to be happy that at least there seemed to be a level of consistency in applying the rules.



BBC Story Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsp ... 289201.stm
 

Brogan

Legend
Staff Member
Yes I was surprised at the stewards' ruling too.

A cynic would suggest this was to ensure Vettel and Red Bull still have a chance and keep the viewing figures high for the last race or 2...

The only consistency there ever is with the FIA is the inconsistency :s
 
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