Should team orders be allowed?

[Brogan]

Did any of you see the indy car race last Sunday.

Did we ever

http://cliptheapex.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=1950

Most of us have been left completely flummoxed by the rule it's fair to say.

 

[Wombcat]

Wombcat:

I think that maybe you are being distracted by the apparent points gap under the new rules.

No, I'm not. It's not about the difference between Massa and Alonso, it's about the difference between Massa and the McLarens and RBRs.

Actually, by my calculation Massa, if he had won at Hockenheim, would now be on 92 points to Alonso's 116.

You're right

That's 24 points, or less than one win, behind with eight races (or 200 points) to go. Remember, Alonso had been bragging pre-Germany that he would win the WDC, from a position then of two wins behind the leader.

But he needs one more win to close the gap to the guys before Alonso.

So, say at Hungary Alonso clashes with a Red Bull, or has an engine failure, resulting in a DNF, and say Massa wins that race. He would now be the leading Ferrari driver. Say Hamilton finishes second to Massa, he would still lead the championship with 175 points to Massa's 117. That may sound like a lot, but it's still only two wins and one 6th place, with 7 races left to run. And as good old Murray once said, "Anything can happen in Formula One and usually does".

Don't forget, Lewis was 17 points (in old money) ahead in 2007 with two races left, yet was still overhauled by Raikkonen at the last race, who won the WDC by one point.

Yeah, but the thing is, as I pointed out, that Massa has got to beat 4 guys (apart from Alonso), not just one as Raikkonen had to do. If it was just one or two drivers, instead 4, his chances would have been better.
I just don't see McLaren and RBR failing so much. Especially since so far both have been scoring well, although RBR should have been scoring even better.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Wombcat:

I agree with you about the points distance between the Ferraris and the Mclarens at the moment. But the issue is still about the difference between Alonso and Massa; as I was trying to illustrate, they are actually relatively quite close and with so many races left, my contention is that it was far too early for Ferrari to be showing such favouritism.

The Red Bulls are currently both on 136 points. If Massa had been allowed to win at Germany, and if my hypothetical result should actually happen this Sunday, and say one of the Red Bulls were to finish third with Button 6th, the points would read something like: Hamilton 175, Button 151, Vettel (or Webber) 151, Massa 117, Alonso 116. All complete conjecture I know, and there are endless alternative scenarios, but it just goes to show how quickly things can change.

 

[Wombcat]

Well, we disagree then. I think it makes perfect sense for Ferrari to show favouritism. The WDC will probably a close race and it's quite logical that Ferrari now focuses on their driver that is closest.
If Williams had done in 1986, one of their drivers would have been WDC.

 

[Chad Stewarthill]

Wombcat:

Ok, we'll agree to disagree.

What interests me though is, on the basis that favouring the leading driver would give the team the best chance of a title, will Ferrari give preference to whoever is highest in the points at any given time, assuming that Massa could overhaul Alonso (two DNF's might do it; not impossible, however unlikely), or will they just continue to favour Alonso regardless of position?

 

[Wombcat]

Wombcat:

Ok, we'll agree to disagree.

What interests me though is, on the basis that favouring the leading driver would give the team the best chance of a title, will Ferrari give preference to whoever is highest in the points at any given time, assuming that Massa could overhaul Alonso (two DNF's might do it; not impossible, however unlikely), or will they just continue to favour Alonso regardless of position?

Well, they did it when Schumacher broke his leg.

 

[slickskid]

A date has finally been set for the hearing following Ferrari's aledged team order's fiasco at the German GP.

The governing body announced on Monday that the WMSC hearing will take place in Paris on 8 September.

 

[sportsman]

It has indeed.What is interesting is this.

"Back in 2002 at the Austrian Grand Prix, then Ferrari boss Jean Todt ordered Rubens Barrichello to pull to one side and allow Michael Schumacher to take the chequered flag.

However, Todt, who is now the FIA president, will not be in the chair for the meeting with the deputy president Nick Craw taking the position."

Tactical withdrawal by Todt?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsp ... 879447.stm

 

[Bullfrog]

Todt has always said he wouldn't personally adjudicate things like this.

 

[sportsman]

Todt has always said he wouldn't personally adjudicate things like this.

Quite true.I always understood that he intended to appoint an F1 Commissioner for these matters

 

[ATL11]

Yes, it's a team sport & you can't police it, as the driver will always say it was his decision.

The only way you get rid of it is by removing the Constructors Championship, which would be sacrilege to some teams as they push for this more than they do the WDC.

 

[sportsman]

Yes, it's a team sport & you can't police it, as the driver will always say it was his decision.

The only way you get rid of it is by removing the Constructors Championship, which would be sacrilege to some teams as they push for this more than they do the WDC.

Hmmmm. Interesting.So if Massa is running in third spot and Alonso is stuck back in sixth place or somewhere, Massa deliberately slows the pace allowing Alonso the chance to pass the cars in front of him, and of course Massa for third place.
Theres a flaw there somewhere.

 

[tooncheese]

Problem is there is no hard evidence, ust a suspicous radio call and a sad-looking Massa. When the rule was put in place it was because of one exceptionaly bad case of team orders, and the FIA panicked into making a rule that doessn't suit F1 after media pressure.

 

[teabagyokel]

Ferrari have come out with an utterly bizarre response to criticism from Niki Lauda:

"After events in Hockenheim, a wave of hypocrisy swept through the paddock, with so many pundits, young and old, keen to have their say.
"Some were promptly brought back into line by his master's voice, while others continue to pronounce sentence willy-nilly.
"The latest missive comes from Austria, from a person, who having hung up his helmet, has never missed out on a chance to dispense opinions left and right, even if, on more than one occasion, he has had to indulge in some verbal acrobatics to reposition himself in line with the prevailing wind.
"This time, good old Niki has missed out on a fine opportunity to keep his mouth shut, given that, when he was a Scuderia driver, the supposed Ferrari driver management policy suited him perfectly.
"That aside, where was all his moral fury when, over the past years, so many have been guilty of more or less overt hypocritical actions?"

With regard to Lauda's suggestion that the WMSC will punish Ferrari severely, the column added: "As for any predictions regarding a possible decision from the FIA World Council on September 8, time will tell.
"In this sort of situation, the best policy is to respect and to trust in the highest level of the sport's governing body."

Since Lauda was criticising Ferrari for breaking the rules, which were not in place in the mid-70s, the chant of hypocrisy seems unjustified.

It seems wrong for Ferrari to come out and accuse everyone else of being hypocritical when their own charge sheet of hypocrisy is wrong; they were the team preaching that they were unfairly treated by the FIA whilst having a veto on rule changes, for example.

This kind of statement is one that makes it plain why in so many past disputes Ferrari have been on the opposite side of the negotiating table to everyone else.

 

[Brogan]

This is it on the Ferrari site: http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/100820_F1_Horse_Whisperer.aspx

It's not the first time this year Ferrari have posted an utterly bizarre article on their website and I suspect it won't be the last.

 

[DOF_power]

This is it on the Ferrari site: http://www.ferrari.com/English/Formula1/News/Headlines/Pages/100820_F1_Horse_Whisperer.aspx

It's not the first time this year Ferrari have posted an utterly bizarre article on their website and I suspect it won't be the last.

There's nothing bizarre about it, Lauda is a hypocrite. He was no. 1 at Ferrari when he won.
Ofcourse the Brabham fan car support really was too much.

 

[DOF_power]

Grand Prix racing was always a team sport and always will be one, and it will always have team orders regardless or their legality.

 

[teabagyokel]

There's nothing bizarre about it, Lauda is a hypocrite. He was no. 1 at Ferrari when he won.

Maybe he is, but what is bizarre is this:

The best policy is to respect and to trust in the highest level of the sport’s governing body.

Those people are the ones who wrote the rule that Ferrari are protesting about people being annoyed about them breaking.

That seems a little bit hypocritical.

Grand Prix racing was always a team sport and always will be one, and it will always have team orders regardless or their legality.

I agree with that, but that is not a defense. If you're caught doing something illegal, you can't be excused because other people who haven't been charged would do it as well.

 

[MajorDanby]

Grand Prix racing was always a team sport and always will be one, and it will always have team orders regardless or their legality.

I agree with that, but that is not a defense. If you're caught doing something illegal, you can't be excused because other people who haven't been charged would do it as well.

Agreed,

Someone is caught smoking a sly splif down a street, they say in their defence that many people in the UK smoke cannabis everyday and a lot of the time the police turn a blind eye to it. Therefore its not right that they get charged where other people don't.

Doesn't really swing it does it? They will still be prosecuted. It doesn't matter than many other people get away with it scott free. Incidentally, people who smoke circumspectly will probably never be caught. Its only when you do it in full view of everyone and flagrantly ignore the law, that it comes back to bite you on the

 

[Brogan]

A very cutting remark was made by Martin Whitmarsh yesterday.

Although Ferrari is now clearly throwing all its weight behind Alonso's title bid, and Red Bull Racing may soon have to start backing Mark Webber over Sebastian Vettel if the Australian keeps his points advantage, Whitmarsh said his outfit was not considering installing a number one at his team yet.

Reflecting that a similar decision to keep both drivers equal had cost McLaren the 2007 world title, Whitmarsh said: "I think clearly we don't like to lose world championships and it [2007] was a painful year in all sorts of ways for this team.

"But I think that it would have been very easy for us and it was very tempting to change your view, your philosophy, but in a straight way I am proud that we didn't.

"I know we did everything in our power to be fair and equitable, and I certainly said to a gentleman who is not here [at McLaren] today that if you want to win a world championship then you want to look yourself in a mirror and know you won it and it has not been gifted. And I think that is the right approach."

I wonder who he means...