Should team orders be allowed?

Should team orders be allowed?


  • Total voters
    58

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
So after the blatant Ferrari team orders at the 2010 German GP, we have to once again visit this most contentious of issues.

Should they be allowed as they were prior to 2002 or remain illegal as they currently are under rule 39.1?
Ironically, it won't be lost on many people that it was due to Ferrari team orders in Austria 2002 that rule 39.1 was introduced.

If they are to remain illegal, how can the FIA enforce a rule which is so frequently and blatantly ignored by the teams and any transgressions overlooked by the FIA?

The current situation we have is farcical and leaves a lot of people feeling a sense of being cheated somehow.

Either there should be no team orders or any blatant changes of position should be investigated and penalised accordingly.

It should also be remembered that it was team orders in 2007, again involving Ferrari and Felipe Massa, which allowed Kimi Räikkönen to take the WDC by 1 point from Lewis Hamilton.
 

MCLS

Anti F1 fan
Valued Member
Absaloutely, definately not, its a disgrace to the sport. We the fans pay hundreds of pounds to go to races, we deserve 100% proper racing.
 

Enja

isn't dead.
Valued Member
No, the best driver should win.

Alonso was not the best driver because "he was faster", if he was faster, get past legitimately. Massa was the best driver today.

I want my racing drivers to race. It's difficult to proof or not but if Massa genuinely felt like he should give the place up, he's okay to do that. But when we heard the team telling Massa that ALONSO. IS. FASTER. then it's pretty obvious.
 

GeoffP

Thank you and good night
Contributor
Grudgingly I have to admit that you can't always get two equal cars to the circuit, or at least the starting grid, but once those lights go green it's a race - if the team want to get in on the action other than in a supporting role, may I suggest a trip to the bookies.

I don't like it, but I have to support Red Bull in deciding who was the best option/use of their front wing prior to a race, but cannot support Vettel for taking a component from Webber's car. Although one story I've read seems to imply that Webber had already had the part removed.

On the circuit, it's match fixing - in what sport is that encouraged other than wrestling?
 

siffert_fan

Too old to watch the Asian races live.
Contributor
Team orders should absolutely NOT be allowed. Attending a race, particularly if the entire family goes, is a very expensive outing. We, the fans, choose F1 as our entertainment, and expect it to be honest competition. As it is, it has the same credibility as professional wrestling!

If all Ferrari gets out of this is a fine, then once again, FIA will stand for Ferrari Is Allowed!
 

McZiderRed

Champion Elect
Supporter
Team orders have always been a part of F1. E.g. When Kimi won his title in 2007, in Brazil Massa gave way for Kimi to win the race by pitting early, and consequently Kimi won the title. Team orders?

Maybe the FIA should get rid of this rule banning team orders, as it obviously hasn't stopped the team orders. It's just forced the teams to try to think of ways of circumventing the rule. The teams have always had team orders and will continue to have them. At least by getting rid this rule, it might be more honest and everyone, including the fans, will know what they're getting when watching a F1 race. F1 is a team sport, after all.

I'm unsure what to think though. I'd prefer to watch the cars race of course, but in reality the teams will do what's best for the team. I don't see how things will change...
 

Brogan

🦶 Leg end
Staff Member
Surely the only team related element of F1 is the WCC?

The drivers are all individually trying to win the WDC.

For team orders to be used at just over half way through the season with barely 1 GP win's worth of points between 2 drivers is doing the driver who is forced to move over a huge disservice, is it not?

Not to mention the fans and the sport in general.

I can see why Ferrari used team orders in 2007 at that stage in the championship.
I don't agree with it though as Kimi's WDC will forever be tainted by the fact that he didn't "win" it for himself through his own abilities.
 

Porceliamone

This cost me a tenner, but so L'Oreal.
Contributor
Team orders no, absolutely not. Especially this early on in a season with well something like a potential 220 or so championship points to be had. If however a driver decides to relinquish a position to a team mate without any interference from the team whatsoever, i.e. knowing it will make the difference between a championship win or contributing greatly to; then that is entirely their right. If team orders are permitted they might as well just do away with the entire WDC altogether and simply run a WCC series.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
I think team orders should be allowed. I'm going to go against the grain here and expect much gnashing of teeth in my direction but as McZ said they've been part of the sport since the year dot.

How many times did Fangio, one of the greatest of all time, pull into the pits with a poorly car, wait for the team to call one of his team mates in, jump in to that car and zoom off again? Most of the greatest drivers of the 50's and early 60's did that on more than one occasion.

The 1964 world title was decided on the last lap because Lorenzo Bandini let John Surtees by after receiving orders to do so. A few laps earlier Bandini had a coming together with Graham Hill which took the other championship challenger out of the race but that's another story. (Jim Clark had already fallen back with an oil leak).

I can remember numerous races in the 80s and 90s where team orders have been brought into play and it was a given in those days.

The problem that we have is that the rule of "no team orders" was brought in after the most cynical bit of race manipulation that the sport has ever seen. I refer of course to Austria in 02. Listening to Schuey being interviewed today he still says (all though admitting it wasn't the best thing at the time) that it was the right thing to do. His reasoning being it doesn't matter if it was race 20 or race 2 if you lose the championship by that many points then you will always ask what if.

I can understand team orders in the final few races when there is nothing left for one driver to win but there is for the other but not when both drivers still have a chance regardless of the gap. Having said that, you can't have a rule that covers both situations. On balance I would have to say that the teams should be allowed to run it as they see fit and face the consequences from public opinion afterwards. A cynical team order decision will effect a teams reputation far more than any sanction from the FIA.

I'm now going to duck.
 

McZiderRed

Champion Elect
Supporter
Yeah. Nicely put C_a_T. Far more eloquently put than I could manage! I've voted that team orders should be allowed.

Brogan said:
Surely the only team related element of F1 is the WCC?
The teams are primarily interested in the WCC. The WDC are nice to get, but it's the team that takes precedence. Without the teams, the drivers would struggle! Therefore, team orders will always be with us.
Perhaps Ferrari's big mistake today was being so blatant about it, given this "rule" banning them...
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
It is now a team sport, so team orders should be allowed. Simple!! Gone are the days when it was driver expertise - and how I hate that - it's all a bit poncey now.

It's not enough for Ferrari to win the constructors, they want the wdc aswell - and to be honest, I don't think Massa is up to that.
 

cider_and_toast

Exulted Lord High Moderator of the Apex
Staff Member
Premium Contributor
jenov2003 said:
It is now a team sport,
It's always been a team sport Jen. It was only after 1958 that the teams were rewarded with a trophy for their efforts as well as a World Drivers Championship.

In the early 50's when the Alfa's were running 3 or 4 cars there would have been more team orders then than we can possibly imagine now.
 

Enja

isn't dead.
Valued Member
McZiderRed said:
Team orders have always been a part of F1. E.g. When Kimi won his title in 2007, in Brazil Massa gave way for Kimi to win the race by pitting early, and consequently Kimi won the title. Team orders?
Oh please.

Comparing today's race in an extremely open and varied championship which has just reached the half way mark to the very last race of the year where the subsiding driver had no mathematical chance of winning the WDC is ridiculous.

Really, I'm amazed you're linking the two.
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
cider_and_toast said:
jenov2003 said:
It is now a team sport,
It's always been a team sport Jen. It was only after 1958 that the teams were rewarded with a trophy for their efforts as well as a World Drivers Championship.

In the early 50's when the Alfa's were running 3 or 4 cars there would have been more team orders then than we can possibly imagine now.
Sure you're right c_a_t - but the emphasis has always been on the drivers - particularly for the fans and this perception has kept going for a very long time.
 

Enja

isn't dead.
Valued Member
jenov2003 said:
Sure you're right c_a_t - but the emphasis has always been on the drivers - particularly for the fans and this perception has kept going for a very long time.
Exactly. Where is the emotion in supporting a brand?

This sounds like another good topic actually.. I'll go make one. ;)
 

rufus_mcdufus

Champion Elect
I think team orders should not be allowed - but I recognise how difficult it is to implement a ban on team orders. Today was blatant, but how often do teams give one driver better parts to the favoured driver without us knowing? How often are strategies particularly designed to favour one driver over the other? It's impossible to police, so perhaps the only alternative is to allow it, despite the general feeling that it's somehow not fair?
 

cosicave

Banned
[[ This is a direct response to Brogan's original question and takes no account of any of the responses so far, since I have not yet read them ]]
___________________________________________________________________________________
Should team orders be allowed? - Absolutely not!: What we saw today was a DISGRACE, but I want to explain why:

*1. Formula 1 is 'sold' as entertainment.
*2. Those who are being 'entertained' are largely a relatively ignorant lot who simply enjoy the spectacle of motor-racing and for the most part, pay little heed to its intricacies.
*3. This means that it is inevitable that some things may go on behind closed doors, out of the public eye, just as when one visits a theatre, one does not expect to find the actors changing into their clothes on stage in full view.
*4. The 'No Team-Orders' rule is essential for Bernie's show to remain credible with his audience.
*5. What happened today, was effectively showing the customer that he/she had bought soiled goods, well past their sell-by date.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Conclusions
It is essential that this rule remains in place, and is seen to be policed properly, consistently and thoroughly, since without it, F1 loses its credibilty and ultimately its 'fan-base'.

If any team decides to do a bit of work 'behind-the-scenes', so be it; after all, we accept it in the theatre. - But to show it to the world in the manner we saw today, was as disgraceful as a dirty old man exposing himself to children.

-Utterly disgraceful and completely unacceptable…
 

Jen

Here be dragons.
Contributor
cosicave said:
[[ This is a direct response to Brogan's original question and takes no account of any of the responses so far, since I have not yet read them ]]
___________________________________________________________________________________
Should team orders be allowed? - Absolutely not!: What we saw today was a DISGRACE, but I want to explain why:

*1. Formula 1 is 'sold' as entertainment.
*2. Those who are being 'entertained' are largely a relatively ignorant lot who simply enjoy the spectacle of motor-racing and for the most part, pay little heed to its intricacies.
*3. This means that it is inevitable that some things may go on behind closed doors, out of the public eye, just as when one visits a theatre, one does not expect to find the actors changing into their clothes on stage in full view.
*4. The 'No Team-Orders' rule is essential for Bernie's show to remain credible with his audience.
*5. What happened today, was effectively showing the customer that he/she had bought soiled goods, well past their sell-by date.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Conclusions
It is essential that this rule remains in place, and is seen to be policed properly, consistently and thoroughly, since without it, F1 loses its credibilty and ultimately its 'fan-base'.

If any team decides to do a bit of work 'behind-the-scenes', so be it; after all, we accept it in the theatre. - But to show it to the world in the manner we saw today, was as disgraceful as a dirty old man exposing himself to children.

-Utterly disgraceful and completely unacceptable…
Either teams orders are Ok or they aren't - behind closed doors or otherwise.

As such it is impossible to police and should be scrapped.

Now I want to change my vote from "it depends" to "yes" - I'm not a team player by nature but understand what is going on in the modern F1 scene.
 

McZiderRed

Champion Elect
Supporter
Enja said:
Comparing today's race in an extremely open and varied championship which has just reached the half way mark to the very last race of the year where the subsiding driver had no mathematical chance of winning the WDC is ridiculous.

Really, I'm amazed you're linking the two.
Both were team orders. Both are banned under the present ruling. The Brazil race was ok, because what? - one driver's WDC was over. So who decides when that is the case? As Michael Schumacher said today, and as C_a_T wrote

cider_and_toast said:
Listening to Schuey being interviewed today he still says (all though admitting it wasn't the best thing at the time) that it was the right thing to do. His reasoning being it doesn't matter if it was race 20 or race 2 if you lose the championship by that many points then you will always ask what if.
Who can say when points won't count towards a WDC, earlier in the season? And how can you have a rule that says it's OK to have team orders at one point in the season, but not another? How can you legislate for that and who decides?

But like I said in my previous posts, of course I'd prefer to watch drivers racing evenly, but this is a team sport, So inevitably there will always be team orders.
 
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