Technical Red Bull's Front Wing (Revisited)
- Thread starter snowy
- Start date
Having watched hours of onboard footage over the last couple of years, I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that Red Bull have made changes to their front wing. There is nowhere near the level of flexing it once exhibited. During their most dominant stage, the endplates were seen to be touching the ground at certain points of the circuit. This phenomenon no longer occurs, therefore the talk of extreme flexing has ceased.
There's some mileage in that i think.
No, I've not noticed so much recently, but it still appears more 'wobbly' at the sides than many other teams. If you look at Williams/Sauber/Mercedes etc, the wing looks very much more rigid at speed and over bumps. McLaren were i think running flexing wings at points this year and we also saw the apparent shifting downward of the back of the wing, which would have the opposite effect to that of the RBR system, reducing drag at high speed.
I don't think it would have gone away completely, I think that since getting it to work and it getting noticed, they have moved to spending their development time on refining it and making it less obvious and less dramatic.
ATL11
Pole Sitter
We know from the TV coverage the front wings for RBR are not flexing as much, have tried to find a BBC School Report article that mentioned the lack of flexing as one of the reasons for their start to the season but no joy.
I'm just wondering if because they've lost rear end grip through the new rules on the heated blown defuser, Have they not had to INTENTIONALLY stiffen up the front wing, just the same grip at the front with reduced grip at the back would this not pitch the even more forward and cause even more issues on grip on the rear end?
One to think about!
I'm just wondering if because they've lost rear end grip through the new rules on the heated blown defuser, Have they not had to INTENTIONALLY stiffen up the front wing, just the same grip at the front with reduced grip at the back would this not pitch the even more forward and cause even more issues on grip on the rear end?
One to think about!
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Good point. They certainly will have had to reduce front downforce to rebalance the car owing to loss of rear downforce conferred by the EBD. It is also possible that they have taken the precaution to reduce flexing in the knowledge that the FIA has attempted and/or is attempting, to tighten up methods of testing compliance.
I am fairly sure that the teams would not have purposefully lost front downforce to compensate for the EBD changes, they would more likely be looking for ways to bring the centre of pressure rearwards through other means, either through the rear wing, or by making the downforce generated by the diffuser effectively work further back on the car.
Bearing in mind that most of the downforce from the front wing is effectively free (due to the air hitting the wheels anyway) I do not believe doing anything other than the small flap changes would be done on purpose.
As for the wings flexing less than normal, increase tests? maybe, worried about getting found out, and deciding not to push their luck too much? maybe.
I think that the Red Bull advantage has been eaten away through the concept of the car being built around the EBD and the efficiencies that allowed, and not therefore being optimal when this is removed. The exhaust positioning now seems to allow for an EBD effect if it is correct, and I think Red Bull will get there, but they are struggling with it at the moment, and I am not sure how strong they will be when they are playing catch up, as opposed to maintaining the advantage. It could be interesting!
Bearing in mind that most of the downforce from the front wing is effectively free (due to the air hitting the wheels anyway) I do not believe doing anything other than the small flap changes would be done on purpose.
As for the wings flexing less than normal, increase tests? maybe, worried about getting found out, and deciding not to push their luck too much? maybe.
I think that the Red Bull advantage has been eaten away through the concept of the car being built around the EBD and the efficiencies that allowed, and not therefore being optimal when this is removed. The exhaust positioning now seems to allow for an EBD effect if it is correct, and I think Red Bull will get there, but they are struggling with it at the moment, and I am not sure how strong they will be when they are playing catch up, as opposed to maintaining the advantage. It could be interesting!
The testing regime was changed for this season, with more weight being applied further out and back.
I believe it's 100kg with a maximum deflection of +/- 10mm permitted, would need to check that though.
So yes, the front wing is definitely stiffer to ensure it passes the test.
I believe it's 100kg with a maximum deflection of +/- 10mm permitted, would need to check that though.
So yes, the front wing is definitely stiffer to ensure it passes the test.
Kewee
Race Winner
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
The diffuser acted upon by the exhaust is the area under the rear of the car with an arrangement of venturi which when blown by the hot exhaust gases drew air underneath the car at an accelerated rate. This enhanced the low pressure area below the car and thus increasing "ground effect" - i.e. "sucking" the car to the ground. The repositioned exhaust can no longer do that but the teams have sought to adapt the blowing effect of the exhaust to other aerodynamic devices such as the lower element of the rear wing, rear wing end-plates and aerodynamically shaped suspension struts and vanes, etc.
As The Pits says, the loss of the EBD means that the centre of pressure and downforce conferred by the aerodynamics of the rear of the car and wing have to be increased to compensate for the said loss.
The wheels don't contribute to downforce of the car and in fact they make a right royal mess of the airflow to other parts of the car. In designing the front wing and in particular the end plates, the aerodynamicists are seeking to direct airflow around and over the wheels to minimise their disruptive effect
Getting back to having to resort to increasnig downforce via the aero', the main problem is that "drag squares with speed" so any increase in wing angle or depth has a negative effect on attainable straight line speed. Thus the other means for compensating for reduced rear downforce and to achieve some sort of balance is to reduce downforce at the front end.
So, the difficulty for the designers and engineers has been how to balance these differing demands and solutions to compensate for the loss of ground effect. This is why Mercedes have gone to such lengths to create the front wing stalling device since they have sought to compensate for the light rear end with "more wing" whilst retaining high levels of downforce from the front wing and optimal flow from that wing over the rest of the car. but with the ability to stall both wings - reducing drag - to enable as high a straight line top speed as possible.
As The Pits says, the loss of the EBD means that the centre of pressure and downforce conferred by the aerodynamics of the rear of the car and wing have to be increased to compensate for the said loss.
The wheels don't contribute to downforce of the car and in fact they make a right royal mess of the airflow to other parts of the car. In designing the front wing and in particular the end plates, the aerodynamicists are seeking to direct airflow around and over the wheels to minimise their disruptive effect
Getting back to having to resort to increasnig downforce via the aero', the main problem is that "drag squares with speed" so any increase in wing angle or depth has a negative effect on attainable straight line speed. Thus the other means for compensating for reduced rear downforce and to achieve some sort of balance is to reduce downforce at the front end.
So, the difficulty for the designers and engineers has been how to balance these differing demands and solutions to compensate for the loss of ground effect. This is why Mercedes have gone to such lengths to create the front wing stalling device since they have sought to compensate for the light rear end with "more wing" whilst retaining high levels of downforce from the front wing and optimal flow from that wing over the rest of the car. but with the ability to stall both wings - reducing drag - to enable as high a straight line top speed as possible.
Fenderman
Rooters Reporter
Following on from my last post ...oh and apologies as I think I may be repeating myself and/or other folk's as my short term memory isn't that great. I haven't time to keep backtracking through all of the previous posts. I'm just thinking that I should add this for clarity. Hope you don't mind.
First, I should mention that as well enabling faster top speed the DRS also significantly aids acceleration. Concidering how important that is when exiting corners and getting up to speed on the straights missing that out of my earlier post was a bit faux pas on my part. Oops. So, to conclude my ruminations on this subject ...
The lack of Mercedes' performance in the race compared to practise and qualifying so far this season can be easily explained. Since the DRS can be used anywhere throughout FP's and Qualifying the Mercedes overall lap times will be the fastest they can achieve over the weekend. In the race, the only times that Nico and Michael can use the device will be if they are in position behind another car in the detection zone to enable its activation. They are then limited to the distance of the one or two "zones" where they are allowed to keep the DRS open and thus the "F-duct" in use. Consequently they will lose significant chunks of time over the rest of the lap, with slower acceleration on the exit of corners that aren't within the approved zone/s and lower top speed on the fast bits.
All this casued me to myself a question ... why would Mercedes put in all the effort oing down a route that would most certainly mean that their car was optimised for qualifying but compromised for the race? The only thng I can think of is that they thought the other teams would suffer the same losses due to the banning of the EBD and that they would be at least competitive in the races. It must have come as somewhat of a shock Mercedes to see the actual race-pace of McLaren, Lotus Renault and Red Bull.
It will be interesting to see if the three week break has been long enough for them to sort the car.
First, I should mention that as well enabling faster top speed the DRS also significantly aids acceleration. Concidering how important that is when exiting corners and getting up to speed on the straights missing that out of my earlier post was a bit faux pas on my part. Oops. So, to conclude my ruminations on this subject ...
The lack of Mercedes' performance in the race compared to practise and qualifying so far this season can be easily explained. Since the DRS can be used anywhere throughout FP's and Qualifying the Mercedes overall lap times will be the fastest they can achieve over the weekend. In the race, the only times that Nico and Michael can use the device will be if they are in position behind another car in the detection zone to enable its activation. They are then limited to the distance of the one or two "zones" where they are allowed to keep the DRS open and thus the "F-duct" in use. Consequently they will lose significant chunks of time over the rest of the lap, with slower acceleration on the exit of corners that aren't within the approved zone/s and lower top speed on the fast bits.
All this casued me to myself a question ... why would Mercedes put in all the effort oing down a route that would most certainly mean that their car was optimised for qualifying but compromised for the race? The only thng I can think of is that they thought the other teams would suffer the same losses due to the banning of the EBD and that they would be at least competitive in the races. It must have come as somewhat of a shock Mercedes to see the actual race-pace of McLaren, Lotus Renault and Red Bull.
It will be interesting to see if the three week break has been long enough for them to sort the car.
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