Current McLaren

Arguably one of the big teams in Formula One but lately they don't seem to be able to get the basics right.
Some of their strategy and decisions in the last few years has left more than a few observers scratching their heads.

Just a few for starters:

• Leaving Kimi out on a badly flat-spotted tyre, resulting in it exploding on the last lap.
• Leaving Hamilton out on tyres so badly worn they were down to the canvas; Bridgestone themselves demanded that McLaren bring him in and McLaren refused, keeping him out for a few more laps. That decision arguably cost Hamilton the first rookie WDC and is one which will haunt him and McLaren for the rest of their days.
• Not sending Button and Hamilton out to get banker laps in during Q1.
• Sending Hamilton out on used tyres in Q3, with rain forecast, meaning it would be impossible to set a fast lap time on his second attempt on new tyres.

Their major updates seem to send them further down the grid, instead of challenging for pole positions and wins. As the season progresses they tend to get worse before getting better, by which time it is generally too late.

It's often said of them "write them off at your peril", but is this necessarily true?

The last time they won the WCC was in 1998 and their last WDC was 2008, before that 1999.
Their days of regularly winning championships seem to be well and truly behind them.

It's all well and good coming up with reasons why they haven't won championships.
The fact remains though, they have won just one WDC in the last 12 years.

So where to now for McLaren?

(I wrote this in rather a hurry so I will flesh it out when I have more time.)

 

[Road of Bones]

I can understand the frustrations but he's not forcing anyone to read it. Best we keep the ad hominem arguments out.

honestly - that is on a par with asking someone to turn down their music to be told "I didn't ask you to listen to it"! How is anyone supposed to "selectively read" posts in a forum? Is there a filter that prevents indivdual users from seeing the posts of others that they choose not to? Of course not - that's why forums like this exist, so that we can share all our opinions with others, whether we agree with them or not.

And as it happens, I am perfectly happy for you to hold a different opinion from mine - but to have to read the same opinon expressed over and over again on thread after thread after thread is a lot like someone playing Rap Music at full chat outside your bedroom window - you can't help but reach a point where you have to open the window and shout "shut the up, please!"

 

[Quintessentially]

At the risk of dragging things off topic, that analogy does not hold. Someone playing loud music and causing a nuisance is different from expressing an opinion on a forum, not to mention the fact that Cookinflatsix is well within his rights to express those comments under CTA guidelines. He is certainly not repeating the same opinion nor cutting and pasting the same lines, even if the aims are similar. I disagree with this attempt to gag him because of some seemingly predetermined view of him expressing the same opinions and I suggest you refer it to a mod if you are that concerned about the issue (for loud music – call your local council). I feel your personal response to him was unnecessary (even if he took it well) when you could’ve easily avoided his comments. I also sense a trend here because if I remember correctly, last time around, you questionioned my right to express doubt about Whitmarsh’s competence rather than focus on the points I had raised. If we all stick to the discussion and not get personal everything will be fine. Eventually these threads die down or are closed by the mods when they descend into a merry go round debate.

@ Rasputin - I've read your post and I was clearly referring to Road of Bones's needless response (post number 57) to Cookinflatsix. I am not sensitive. I was defending another member's right to an opinion so I'm not sure what you are on about , almost certainly nothing to do with the particular issue here.

 

[FB]

Just to cheer you all up there will be an "ignore" feature at an upgrade in the near future which means if there is anyone who you really don't like reading posts from you will be able to click this and never hear from them again.

What do you mean, "thank God for that we never have to read the crap FB posts"

Anyway, back on topic, the 2nd most succesful team in F1, one of only 3 teams to win a Grand Prix this season or last. By any stretch of the imagination McLaren (or Project Four if we want to delve back into the annnuls of time as this is where the current management comes from) are not at the top of their game at the moment but their not exactly "doing a Williams" are they?

 

[RasputinLives]

I think Q (can I call you Q?) you might be being a touch sensitive on this matter. We've had a debate on this issue and it was all done with reasonably good humor - both sides questioning the facts the other was presenting without have to resort to personel insults or using up valuable mods time up. As far as I can see no personel insult has been taken by anyone.

I don't see anyone suggesting that you don;t have a right to feel or express your opinion on Martin Whitmarsh - I think what Ninja was saying (in his own way) was that opinions have been drawn on the ground and everyone is aware of who thinks what rather than repeating that lets wait for further developments and see where that takes us.

No one is questioning anyones rights to feel anything - don't mistake not being agreed with for being oppressed

Sorry FB - I'll keep it on topic.

Not doing a Williams at present but what happens when they lose Merc engines? we all saw what happened to them when they lost Honda. Are we expecting a dip?

 

[MCLS]

Well on average they are the only team to have been close to Red Bull this year which, considering how poor pre season was, isn't that bad, but apart from the 2009 turnaround their mid season developments haven't been that good in recent years.

 

[FB]

One of McLaren's strengths was always being quick "straight out of the box", they do seem to have lost something technically from the days of John Barnard or Gordon Murray. I believe Neil Oatley is still there but I don't think he's "inventive" in the way Barnard, Murray and a certain A Newey esq. are.

The Mercedes engine question is an interesting one although Mercedes ain't won nowt so at least with the McLaren chassis they are winning something. Anyone one remember the McLaren Peugeot?

 

[RasputinLives]

I'd say Ron Dennis probably has nightmares where he's being chased by the Mclaren Peugeot only it wouldn't be very scary as he'd be able to out run it.

 

[Road of Bones]

New non-exploding Peugeots...(muffled boom)...curses, a dud!

Has there been any definitive word on whether McLaren will continue to use Mercedes engines after the switch to V6s? With them manufacturing their own turbocharged V8s for the MP4-12C, I always thought it was a precursor to building their own F1 powerplants

 

[FB]

Let's hope they don't put Martin Whitmarsh in charge of the engine development group then

Oh crap, have I opened up the cans of worms again

 

[Brogan]

Is there a filter that prevents indivdual users from seeing the posts of others that they choose not to?

Not yet, but there will be very soon

We'll be upgrading the software to 1.1 shortly, which has an ignore feature, you'll all be glad to hear

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Let's hope they don't put Martin Whitmarsh in charge of the engine development group then

I would like to respond because I believe that its important to speak ones mind

However I am worried the old ladies downstairs are going to confiscate my loud Sony Walkman

 

[Jen]

Sony Walkman - are you saddled with one of those still?

Yes, it is important to speak one's mind, but even I know when to give up, I hope.

PS: I'm the little old lady downstairs

 

[Cookinflatsix]

Jen, you can have my Walkman, cant offer you any Rap though

 

[RasputinLives]

I've got a reel to reel 8 track you can borrow if you like Cook. No rap thought - just prog rock!

Back on the old Macca's - I may have asked this else where but are Mclaren really going to develop their own engines? I've kind of been led to believe not of late which is a shame as I thought it was really a good idea. Sure they'd have to put up with a season or two of engine blow ups but it would really make them a self sufficent team who no longer had to rely on contracts with other companies.

 

[Brogan]

I may have asked this else where but are Mclaren really going to develop their own engines?

I think they'll have to as their deal with Mercedes comes to an end soon, and I doubt Mercedes want to supply one of their main competitors.

The new engines will be the perfect time to do that as everyone will effectively be starting from a blank page.

 

[Cookinflatsix]

To start designing and building F1 engines from scratch just for your own team could be ruinous

I think the only solution mooted was to take over the BMW production facility and its engines and parts etc , not sure what happened to that idea.

The road car has a McLaren engine which is designed and built by the company but wasn't from scratch, it is based on an existing V8 designed for le Man LMP type racing, and is produced at the facilities of Ricardo in England who do stuff for the Veron etc

Ron has produced a fantastic road car by all accounts, sure he doesnt have to reinvent the wheel with F1 engines. The F1 divisions job is to help sell the road car, no need to create a burden like building a reliable engine etc

 

[Cookinflatsix]

I think they'll have to as their deal with Mercedes comes to an end soon, and I doubt Mercedes want to supply one of their main competitors.

The new engines will be the perfect time to do that as everyone will effectively be starting from a blank page.

Good point, however I think everyone means every existing engine builder with the R&D facilities in place. A newcomer might be at an even bigger disadvantage starting from blank page. Also Audi/VW only wanted to enter if the F1 engines were basically the same format as the majority of their existing builds. A new engine maker having to start with new regulations and produce a few hundred F1 engine units a year would be very brave and rich. IMHO

 

[Quintessentially]

Just to cheer you all up there will be an "ignore" feature at an upgrade in the near future which means if there is anyone who you really don't like reading posts from you will be able to click this and never hear from them again.

I sincerely hope not. In my experience if a poster you haven't blocked quotes a poster you've blocked you end up seeing the post anyway unless there are plans to address this. We should all be mature enough to have a sensible debate and ignore comments we don't want to read without the need for prescriptive measures. I'm not sure it would be good for a community spirit either but may be there is somewhere else we can discuss this/feedback thoughts?

 

[FB]

McLaren have experience of "making" their own engines when Tag paid Porsche to build a motor for them. Who's to say they won't do the same again?

On the ignore button Quint, you're more than welcome to start a thread in the Pit Lane section to gauge opinion. As a moderator I have to try and read all the posts so I'm not allowed an opinion

http://cliptheapex.com/forums/pit-lane/

 

[Cookinflatsix]

McLaren have experience of "making" their own engines when Tag paid Porsche to build a motor for them. Who's to say they won't do the same again?

You mean almost like buy engines from the manufacturer, except the engines are built exactly to the requirement of the team? Still expensive and the builder cannot already be making F1 engines for another team.

Better to make an exclusive deal with the manufacturer and have the engine developed to the teams spec anyway, the manufacturer subsidises the cost by having its name as a sponsor

Tempting Honda back for 2014 exclusively would be the way forward